Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

I do think he is more of a visual learner than just being talked at but nothing to prove that.

I guess we were hoping that he would go to the grammar and just pick up and carry on. It does just seem to be maths that he is struggling in so we are really torn whether it is worth pulling him out of grammar school just for the one subject.

They have tests in January so I guess we will find out where abouts he is in the year then. If he is at the bottom for most subjects I think I would find it very hard to leave him there and let him struggle for the next 5 years in the bottom sets. We want him to enjoy learning, not make him think that he isn't clever and lose confidence in his ability.

What is the khan academy? I have never heard of it.

If it is just maths he may also have been unlucky with a poorer teacher. You can't base his suitability and happiness at his grammar just from one subject, however important.
Other posters will give more knowledgeable views on khan, conquer maths etc but they are online resources (free for khan) that your DS could use for reviewing the topics he has n't followed.

Op - yes I would (remove my child from grammar if he was not getting sufficient attention and help to put him in an Indy with smaller classes)

Have they set for maths yet? If he is still in a mixed ability set, then there will be a lot of very able children who the pace is far too slow for and will not be particularly interested.Once they set then this should resolve itself.
You need to speak to the school there.They won't expect you to wait for parents evening if you have a problem.Fire off an email this weekend asking the Head of year to give you a call.
Also please remember that 11+ exams generally test for intelligence not attainment.So it is very possible for a bright child to be behind when they start simply because they haven't been taught as much or as well as others.They catch up.

ds started at grammar in sept 14. His score was pretty much the lowest that got into his school, but now he is there he sits comfortably in the middle and sometimes in the top group. So I think you have to take 11+ results with a pinch of salt. Having said that, if he was pushed to pass by his prep school and is now struggling to keep up, then yes, I would consider moving him.

But.
It is very early days. ds found last term stimulating and completely exhausting, taking to my niece who is in a Kent grammar in year 8, she was the same. First term was really hard going, emotionally, physically and academically, so many new things, so much to adapt too etc.

I would say it is way to early to move him or to make the decision. First get a sight and hearing test. Second (and at same time) talk to the school. We have ds tutor's email address. I would start there, say that you have concerns about how he is coping and about maths. See what happens. If the school responds well, communicates well, addresses the issue etc (which I would fully expect ds school to do) then work with them for the time being and see how he settles down now. By all accounts this term is much easier and year 7s are much happier.
Wait for those tests too, ds was really hard on himself, thought he was stupid with low entrance score, and then we had a report with levels and he discovered he was middle of the class, and his confidence soared. It may just be maths, or it may be that the grammar isn't the best school for him.

Forgive me, I don't really know, but it seems very early to know.

yellow, I hope you don't mind, but I noticed your comment, and LaQ's - I see where you're coming from, but I would say, it is often the case that bright children don't have a smooth learning profile. Some people are natural hard workers, and do well. Others struggle, but then come on in leaps and bounds. You can't know for sure until they've been given a chance.

I know that I was the child who'd scraped into a selective school, and I had friends who were initially very confident. In the long run, it turned out that taking your time to think, and puzzle over things, is valuable too - not just glib answers. I met up with some friends from school a few months ago, and we were all aware that 11 is very young to know how someone will turn out.

"As I type, DD1 is plugged into her phone, bopping her head to music with one eye on the TV but also writing a pretty good piece on The Crusades on her lap-top. She makes it look easy...because for the majority of grammar school children it is easy.

The 11+ doesn't select for the diligent, and the earnest and the well intentioned. It selects for the quickest and the cleverest, who need little support. It's not the best environment for a child who needs a bit of coaxing, or extra support."

This is the BEST argument I ever heard against the 11 plus. I took it -no tutoring, council estate, social mobility made good. The intention of it I am grateful. And then I look at this middleclass fuckwittery. What hope for the proper clever children of the future?

I think that these feelings are quite common for children starting all types of secondary school. I would not pull him out of school but I would ask to speak to his head of year/ house.

I thought that the whole point of grammar schools was to stretch more able children. I would be complaining if my children could do their homework whilst only giving it half of their attention.

I do think that LaQueen is right that grammar schools are not right for your child if they need support. My son is very able at maths, weaker at English and the Arts. They thought he was going to get a B in English and for a while that looked doubtful. Despite his very clear learning needs they made no effort to support him and simply issued detentions. I had to ask my colleagues to support him , the grammar then took the credit.

That's not fair, style. Many children use background noise to help them concentrate, especially those with certain learning disabilities. She may not be paying full attention to any of those things, but they might be helping her manage the task in hand.

style I have always done homework o music/radio, and would have been quite happy to have tv on too. Even now I work from home and have radio 4 on all the time as I work.
I find it occupies one part of my mind, allowing the rest to concentrate. If you asked me what i had been listening to though, I often couldn't say.

I often work with music on as do the children, although they don't do their homework in front of the TV whilst listening to the music at the same time

I was surprised that a student at a grammar school found their homework just do easy as the point of a grammar school is to stretch students academically.

"I wouldn't keep my child at a school where he was in the bottom set if I had a choice to go private."

Why on earth not? What usually happens in grammar schools is that there are a lot of sets for Maths - (7 in my dd's school)- and the lower the set the fewer children in it. They are aiming for As for all the children, but the larger top sets zoom ahead and the smaller lower ones get more individual attention. My de was in set 6 of 7. I think there were 8 girls in the set- they all got As.

And if my child was doing their homework like LaQueen's is, whatever school they were at, I would be asking serious questions about why they weren't being given more challenging work.

I always did my homework with something on in the background - it does help some people work.

I agree with LaQ. For some children (and adults) having music playing while they work is a benefit and not a distraction.

To the OP

I would hold fire. I would keep your child at school, having spoken to child and teachers to take stock of situation and come up with next steps. Independent School will cost upwards of £10k a year. My dc1 started Y7 in Sept 2014. Firstly, it is true about kids not wanting to work and talk a lot. Dc1 is one of those who is guilty of this. Dc1 is also struggling in geography and maths, and mostly down to teachers who will (rightly) not tolerate any disruption.

I would hope school would challenge my children. It shouldn't all be such a breeze surely?
If everything you do is easy peasy, you are the best at it all, no effort, what's the point?

OP I agree with the other posters who suggest a hearing test.
Could he be moved closer to the front of the class?

You know that he is bright as he can do well within a smaller class. It sounds like it isn't necessarily the level of work, but the busy classroom environment which is the problem.
So he may have exactly the same issues within a large secondary classroom.
Personally I would consider an ed psych assessment in case he has some level of processing difficulty.

There is a lot of mythology about grammar schools. (Well, the non super selective ones anyway). Obviously the intake is brighter than average. But there is a wide spread of ability. And particularly in Maths, which is often very badly taught in primary schools, and where there is a wide spread of ability anyway. There will be year 7s ranging from high level 4 to level 7- even 8. There has to be extra support for the lower end.

OP, I would make an appointment to go ant talk to your son's form tutor. And I would email your concerns in advance, so she can talk to the appropriate teachers beforehand.