Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

Dobedo, the school I went to (grammar) only setted for languages and maths.

However, in maths he says that they get taught a topic and then get between 15-30mins to practise and then move on.

Yeah, that's pretty standard in maths lessons these days. Also, they've just doubled the amount of stuff required for maths GCSE so it's only going to get worse. I'm a maths teacher and with my top sets really rely on homework for additional practice, there simply isn't the time in lessons to get through everything. There's no guarantee that it would be any different in the Indy school.
If it is just maths he is struggling with, then you could use some of the money saved from private school fees to hire a maths tutor.

BoF, that's really interesting, thanks.

LaQueen, in English it's much easier to differentiate by outcome - you can set the whole class the same essay and everyone would be able to access it at some level. Mixed ability teaching improves results for lower and middle ability students. In maths, setting is more important as it is much more difficult to teach a class where some need to learn trigonometry and some need to practise percentages. That's why schools tend to set for maths even when they don't set for other subjects.

Dobedo, have you seen what his Maths homework is like? From what I've learned from those links, it should be a repetition of what he's been learning in class, giving him a chance to practice and consolidate the new stuff. Apparently that's the best sort of homework, whereas "projects" at home are a waste of time (as is homework at Primary, interestingly).

I think you have the right idea waiting and seeing. It sounds like my nephew. He struggled a bit with English in P7 and there was all sorts of stuff about not being able to hear, the class being too disruptive etc. In the end my SIL identified that somewhere somwhow he had basically missed a bit and had got lost and was unable to keep up and was panicking. So she sent him to tutoring for a term. It was Kip McGrath I think. Surprisingly he enjoyed it and once he got to terms with the bits he had problems with he was fine and his academic confidence was given a huge boost.

I was that child struggling at Grammar school. It was depressing and I so wish my parents had sent me to a different school. I asked to leave at 16 but stayed on and took some random A levels. Then went to secretarial college.

They used to read out our name and results for each exam starting with the top mark. Imagine 7 years of listening out for your name each time. It destroyed any confidence I did have.

OP, I think you should ignore that it is a grammar school at this stage. If your DS is not happy there and 'cannot hear everything' because of the talking in the lessons, then pay attention to your son and his needs. It would be best to see if you can talk to the school about the lessons he is having difficulty with.
I could understand this on other subjects where there is dissussion and group work, but not Maths.

Being happy and having friends at (or outside of) secondary school is vital. If he has friends there, encourage them and only consider moving him if his self esteem is suffering and he hasn't made any friends.

As you say, he can have a math's tutor if needs be. TBF, he might find the teaching gets better after the tests and when he's being taught (not just expected to keep up with the work the top of top set can do).

Research does indeed support what BOF states, homework is the most effective in Maths and MFL where it is used to practice a skill or learn vocabulary etc. In other subjects homework has less of an impact.

Prompted by research many other subjects in my children's school have moved to using homework time to do the learning and then practising the skill in class. So for example DD1 today has been doing some RE homework. She had to find out religious teachings about warfare and commit these to memory. In class they will then use that knowledge. If she has not done that properly she will struggle I'm class. She could not do that whilst watching TV, although if she was in a grammar school she would be towards the lower end ability wise, so that could be why.

From what I can remember ( I have been at home for a while) pupil performance is highly impacted by quality teaching, differentiation and feedback. That is one of the reasons I spend time each week going through each of my children's books, checking that they are getting feedback and they they understand it. We sometimes use homework time to practise the skill that has been highlighted as an area to develop in that feedback.

Essexmum me too. Well - it was telly until A levek then I had a desk in my bedroom and it was radio instead. I prefer to work now with the radio on, too. My in laws are incapable of existing in a room without a telly on, they will turn on the telly before they turn the light on. My kids all do their homework with music on, DD2 sometimes prefers to do it in the living room (with the Telly on) and she just got an excellent first report from her new school. Some people like background noise, it's as simple as that.

The hearing/sight tests are a sensible suggestion OP - it could be just that.

I'd also give him a bit more time to adjust - go and see the school and have a chat to them about him.

I'm having a bit of a about the challenging homework that can be done while watching telly and listening to music. I used to tell my mum that as well and it was crap then, and it's crap now. It may produce work but not really of the highest quality, surely?

In my work life, neither I or any of the lawyers that I work with can prepare cases well with background noise and they hate open plan!!!!

CATS tests are standard in secondary schools as far as I know. It enables the school to spot strengths and weaknesses in each student, what approach woukd work for them. It is supposed to be a neutral way of identifying ability that is not linked to subject knowledge. Of course this is not perfect.

We use it to also identify pupils for intervention at either end of the ability spectrum as well as spot coasting students

LaQueen nobody is frothing, if she very rarely does her homework whilst watching TV and listening to music that is different from doing it often bevause it is all so easy that she breezes through it. That was not how I understood your post

Whereas DD1 and her other friends are probably quite chatty and lively at school but still manage to get good marks and breeze through the homework.

As I type, DD1 is plugged into her phone, bopping her head to music with one eye on the TV but also writing a pretty good piece on The Crusades on her lap-top. She makes it look easy...because for the majority of grammar school children it is easy.

Homework should not be easy for the majority of the children that it is set for. That is pointless.

My DD2 is our wild child, she thinks that she can be chatty in lessons and Coast through lessons. I have been very clear with her teachers that they must not allow her to get away with this. Chattiness in lessons is low level disruption and is a big issue in classrooms. I do suspect that my daughter does this more than yours. She has a real slog in year 7, meeting behaviour expectations but is now getting it right .

OP khan academy have developed a series of maths tutorials on YouTube and in my opinion are the best thing since sliced bread (particularly when explaining how to multiply fractions )

BOF probably worth mentioning that Jo Boaler has been the focus of a big row in maths education and there have been questions raised about her research and its validity, especially as her data is not available for independent scrutiny.

Listening to her going on about primary kids spending hours fannying about with odd and even numbers was quite depressing though. Newton stood on the shoulders of giants and saw further than others, expecting 8 year olds to derive thousands of years of maths from scratch seems like pointless time-wasting.

"Homework should not be easy for the majority of the children that it is set for. That is pointless."

Absolutely.

That's interesting, noblegiraffe, I didn't know that.

Dd is at a comprehensive - started in sept 14.

She has been setted for everything apart from design/art/re.

They sat CAT tests in July. School put into interim sets for maths from first week based on CATs and SATs info from school.

They have subsequently been resetted after the half term - tweaking really. Dd stayed in the original maths set. In addition, they have now been setted for English and science. In a couple of weeks they will be setted for languages, history and geography.

We had a parents evening in early November and also a sheet with current levels and targets, grading effort and achievement.

Another parents evening in February I think. Then feedback on progress. Then testing week in early May before end of year report.

I've been rather impressed by the organisation, and the extent to which she gets updated targets and positive feedback very regularly on progress. The targets are rigorous but attainable, and the homework and class work is challenging but not off-puttingly so.

The friends I have with dcs in grammar schools have said that they have not done all the setting yet. Entirely understandable I suppose since there is not such a broad range of prior attainment/academic potential.

Dd is doing well in terms of work, but given the choice would be back at her primary like a shot! Still not settled and confident. I'm hoping that by Easter she will feel more comfortable.

OP,

It sounds as if he is not that happy at school? Has he settled in ok, made a few friends? Does he like (some of) the teachers? Has he joined any clubs?

I have a son in y7, who followed a similar path to yours (went private in y4), now at comp (no grammars here), and I think it is a BIG thing, the first term of y7.

Give it time. Y7s are very chatty and young as a rule (says teacher DH), he finds teaching y7s exhausting! They settle down and settle in by the end of the year though.

Talk to the tutor and HoY, to start with.

CAT tests have indeed been used in Comps for years. Dd1 is 24 and she did them in Y7. So that was roughly 13 years ago.

Whoever said most Grammar school kids find homework easy?! Ha ha ha!!
Your child is either a genius or getting very easy homework.

I wouldn't make a decision until the end of this academic year, but if he is struggling then move him.

It must be horrible to to feel you are not being taught well or be struggling to keep up.

Much better to feel confident and relaxed, than feel you are failing.

Just because the school gets better grades overall doesn't mean your DC will achieve his maximum exam results in this school. I suspect he would come out of the independent school with better exam results and higher self esteem.