Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

There is, potentially, quite a big difference in prior attainment at grammar schools. In Bucks, some of the grammars have middle attainers as well as high attainers. It is therefore possible they have level 4 as well as level 6 children in year 7. They will also have children who have done an MFL and those who have no MFL knowledge. The other problem is, someone has to be a lower achiever. It is not pleasant and often the appeal children and the over tutored take up these positions and struggle with the homework. I would speak to the school as others have suggested to gauge what you should do. Not all grammar school children are brilliant, by any means, but it is hard if you cannot keep up.

Pooka - your DDs school sounds very well organised and like it has it's head screwed on when it comes to setting work. I'm sure she'll do great.

I think cooking the books till late at night is excellent preparation for anyone who might have a family business to help out in when they leave school LaQueen.

Thanks keema. :)

It's a good school I think. Just wish she was happier and less anxious.

I agree, the school your DC is at Pooka sounds excellent. I wish our one communicated with us more.

Again I do understand that some children will do better at the top of a comp school than bottom of a grammar school. Just the thought of pulling him out of a grammar school is hard and something we never considered. Also, it is a big commitment to put him back in the independent sector for at least the next 4 years.

Another option would be to pull him out for his GCSE years but would that work if he has had 3 years at the grammar school? It's so difficult. Whatever you do you think you do for the best and then it turns out not to be!

dobedo from what you have been saying there is no reason why you can't surmount his difficulties as it appears just to be maths. If he continues to be unhappy and lacking in confidence after another 1-2 terms I would have thought that waiting to pull him out for his GCSE years would be fairly pointless. However if it is simply that you want to reassess the best environment for his academic progress and your preferred independent school has a major entry point at year 9, then it would seem reasonable to use that as a timeframe to reconsider.

"Again I do understand that some children will do better at the top of a comp school than bottom of a grammar school"

Er- the top set of a comprehensive school will be the same as a grammar school.......

Apologies Hakluyt I wasn't clear. I meant do better from a self-esteem and confidence point of view rather than academic ability.

Same applies- all a grammar school is is the top set or two of a comprehensive in a different building..........

I think you meant a top set in a secondary modern.

I know what you mean, some students benefit from having to keep up and others will just lose confidence.

Ideally chikdren would be taught in comprehensives where it would be easier to move them to the correct set.

OP: does the fact that your son only complains about noise and disruption in maths (the lesson he struggles most with) tell you something? I would be asking myself wether it is really noise and disruption that is the problem or the fact that my child is struggling and isn't used to being one of the struggling children.

As for background noise and tv's whilst doing homework: as a kid I always did my homework and revision in front of the tv and if was usually sufficiently challenging but I always completed it to a good standard and was top of the year in all subjects except science and German where I was top set but not top of the year group overall. Some people work better with background distractions.

He does moan about the children talking in other lessons as well, apparently it is worst in religious studies. But I think because he struggles a bit with maths it effects him more. It does wind him up as he comes home and moans that he wants to learn and can't hear when the others are talking. I'm not claiming he is any angel though, I'm sure he does his fair share of chatting and messing about in lessons.

In my experience, maths is one of those subjects where behaviour management can be an issue for the following reasons.

1. It is difficult to attract and keep good staff
2. It is acceptable to say you "can't do" maths and therefore some students give up
3. It is difficult to "sex up" maths .

Sadly maths is one of those subjects in which you need periods of silence or strong control.

If students are chatting in lessons and making it difficult complain . Go first of all to head of year/ house and the head of subject. Give it a few weeks and if nothing changes complain to the head and then governors

Do you think there will be less chatting in the independent schools classes?
I know of one top independent school which has classes of 12 at senior level and the others have classes of 22-26 which is similar to the local state schools. I don't think chatting in class is unique to state schools. You need to establish what exactly your son means by chatting. If it is the odd whisper then that happens in all schools if children are constantly chatting then if needs to be stopped (but I wouldn't expect any school to tolerate constant chatter).
I am favourable towards indie schools but I would do my own investigation and ask the school to take action before transferring my child to ensure he isn't exaggerating or trying to manipulate a move to the school his friends have gone to.

Hmmm... As well as my main subject I teach RSS. Discussion is a large element of the lessons. I expect quiet when writing but chat is common. I think you need to get more specific information from DS.
However, I stand by previous advice. Contact tutor and hearing tests. Maths is a notorious subject in terms of recruiting and keeping good staff. Good luck with resolving this in the new term.

I would ask him who he sits next to in the lessons where he finds it hard to hear - in my experience children are most often distracted by the child right next to them who's having a conversatino with them, rather than others at the other side of the room. My DS's teacher complained recently to me that DS wasn't paying attention in French and was being distracted by his friend who he sits next to - I spoke to DS about it, but also asked the teacher to move them around so they're not next to each other, which has helped.

Are they set for maths yet? A lot of schools don't set for the first half term or so, but even in a grammar school there's just a huge variation in abiltiy in maths so it's hard for teachers to get the level right for everyone in a mixed ability set. As others have said, I wouldn't worry at all if he ends up in the bottom set for maths - it'll be where he gets the right support and teaching level for him. But I would worry if they don't set on the grounds that "they're all bright kids" so don't need setting, as the difference between reasonably bright enough to scrape into a grammar school and super-brainy at maths (possibly GCSE level work already in y7) is substantial.

If he is used to smaller groups, quieter learning environment and plenty of one to one support it will take some adjusting, that is to be expected. He probably feels thrown in at the deep end, both academically and socially. Doesn't mean he won't adjust, though - it'll just take some time and effort.
Starting secondary can be hard in any case; the grammar school may be trying to set the pace early and make it extra-tough, so that the kids know what to expect.

I'd ask him what he is struggling with in maths, or if he doesn't understand something, and sit with him while he does his homework. If he is willing to cooperate, you can go over the lesson again. If you don't quite get it when a topic is taught, it can lead weeks of misery and confusion - easily avoided with a bit of help at home.

DS1 is in Yr7 (but in a 13+ prep) and is dyslexic. He finds disruption harder to cope with (yes - even private schools have children who chat at times ). He sits at the front of the class which does help. It is easier for him to focus on the teacher and the whiteboard.

Perhaps your DS could sit at the front in the lessons where he struggling to focus. It will also give him a direct sightline to the teacher if he is struggling with something so he might find it easier to catch their attention.

One other thought, your DS might not be the only one struggling with the disruption / noise but I would imagine very few of them will be willing to speak out because they don't want to seem less clever or boring in a new class.

But surely they take the same exams at the end? It is better to be a group that suits your learning speed? An A is an A and the end of the day.

I wasn't GOOD at Maths. I detested it. I was not in the top set but still got an A at GCSE. Obviously I did not pursue it beyond that point. Yet interestingly, years later I had to do Statistics as part of my Professional Qualifications and found it made much more sense when placed in a practical setting.

Dobedo, I would give it til the end of the year and see if settles down. The school would surely raise it if they had concerns?