Should we take DS out of grammar school?

[dobedo]

Our DS started at a grammar school in Sep 14 and is in yr7. He was very close to passing the 11+ exam and got in on appeal. DS went to a state primary up to the end of yr4 when we decided to move him to a local prep for the last 2 years as the state primary had really gone downhill due to a new head. When at primary school he hated maths as the school didn't teach it well however at his prep school he came on so much and enjoyed learning again.

Basically we thought that by putting DS back in the state system into a grammar school would be fine and a great idea as it wouldn't cost us anything and he would be getting a good education.

However, since being there for 1 term his confidence has gone down, he moans that children just talk in the classes all the time and he can't hear everything and that the other children aren't interested in learning. Also, especially in maths the teacher never gets to him when he puts his hand up for help in a lesson and when everyone is talking he gets confused.

There is an independent school in the area that gets fairly good grades but not as good as the grammar school obviously, however, he would be back in classes of 20 rather than 30 and get more attention and help from the teachers.

Would you remove your child from a grammar school to put them back into the independent sector for the additional help and attention? I'm so confused, I never thought we would consider taking our DS out the grammar school.

I would hold fire. Children can struggle massively with the transistion between primary and secondary. It is not unusual for levels to slip by quite a bit.
Get his hearing tested and perhaps try and see his form teacher to air your concerns and get their perspective on how he is doing.
Worrying about him getting through on appeal is a red herring imo. The tests are just one day, necessarily so I suppose, but I know that a fair few of ds' s classmates who you would have put money on passing the test, didn't. They are still bloody bright, just unlucky on the day I suppose.

Personally I think if the child can emotionally/socially cope with being in bottom sets, they can be very "lucky" to find themselves in one at a grammar school. I've worked in one where bottom sets of 8 students are to be found in maths and English and the children are very well supported to achieve. Had they been at an all-ability school, they would have been in a very large middle set.

OP, I think you need to give it more time and do some digging. Speak to tutor to see how ds is coping socially and emotionally and also how he copes in noisy registration /form times. She/he would normally happily email all class teachers to ask for feedback or concerns. I've never worked in a school where form tutors don't happily do this for concerned parents.

Look into hearing and processing tests.

Keep your ear to the ground for how easily you would get a place at the independent, if you decided to switch him for year 8. Plenty of kids do move out from one sector to another in yr 7/8.

Oh and 'results' are worth looking more carefully at.

Colleagues at the grammar were aghast I would send ds (grammar ability) to an independent and not to the grammar because "our results are much better". Well, he isn't there for the results but for the pastoral care and SEN dept, but often it's only the headline 5 A-C results which people mean by this. Yes, the grammar's are better - they have no low ability children (although some 'middle' ability) - but other figures are much better at the non- selective independent, eg percentage A/A*. In other words, the top and middle sets do better at the independent; the grammar just doesn't have a bottom set to pull its overall figure down.

First term of grammar school can be really hard, depending on the school. They teach to the highest level in the class and it's up to students who don't understand to find a way to catch up. Hence continued tutoring. To be honest, I prefer the comprehensive ethos on balance, but I think your comparison here is between grammar and Indy and your instinct that the grammar will push harder for higher grades than the Indy is probably correct!

Wait for parents evening, see what the teachers say and how they think he is getting on. You suggest he has found the maths standard higher than he expected and is having to adjust. That is completely normal at this stage. In the long run, making an effort to work at maths and improve will be better for his confidence, not worse. The 11+ is a red herring. You can sit several of these exams for different schools and be judged selective or not depending on how you did on the day. I had a history teacher who said that the inner London comp she came from had students brighter than any of us grammar school girls as well as students who struggled far more. She was right. I soon found this out at a history workshop where an A level comp group wiped the floor with us. And I was really good at history! What matters is that your school has teachers who want to bring out your son's potential, will encourage him to work independently and give him good guidance. If you get the impression they really don't care and he is genuinely unhappy, start looking around!

Until recently I taught in a local school and that feeling of being overwhelmed is very common indeed from pupils of all abilities. I would not move him, I would be looking at his books, checking that he does know what he needs to do to improve. I would be making an appointment with the school, you certainly do not want to move him without knowing that you have explored all the avenues.

As for students feeling challenged, as a teacher and a parent I do want each piece of homework to be challenging. There should be different homework tasks or a piece that is open ended so that it can be tackled in different ways. I have always monitored the children's homework and encouraged them to do something in addition or more challenging if I suspected they were finding it a breeze. I say that as a rather laid back parent who would not voluntarily send my children to a grammar school, I surprised that such an ardent supporter of grammar schools is happy with homework that can be breezed through.

As I said, there is a lot of mythology about grammar schools. They are an outdated outrage. BUT. They aren't the high pressure hot houses some people think they are. Neither are they the sunlit groves of academe populated by the perfectly behaved brightest and best others think they are. They are just schools that produce good exam results - as, indeed they should -having weeded out the 75% containing those unlikely to do well at GCSE. Some are good schools, some are bad. But the exam results are incidental. It would be shocking if they didn't get good results.

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"As for students feeling challenged, as a teacher and a parent I do want each piece of homework to be challenging. "

Agreed. I see no point in homework for homework's sake. If it's not challenging it's simply a waste of time. Can't bear makework.

OP, I'd not make any decisions based on the first term as transition from primary to secondary can take different children different times. I'd expect that with more time it will all settle down and he'll find his feet. As he's moved from Indy with low student to staff ratio then the change may be greater, especially if he's having to make new friends at the same time.

Speak to the school. I'm sure that if he was truly struggling and out of his depth then the pastoral care in the school would have picked it up and they'd be speaking to you already.

I'd not worry too much about him struggling in one subject. People can be lousy in one subject, but excel in others as did the other children at the Grammar I went to. We had girls who were outstanding at sport and art but lousy at maths or science. The school worked with them to stretch where they excelled and supported where help was needed, and that's what any good school does whether it's a grammar or not. A school that expects level attainment across the board would concern me as being unrealistic!

The 11+ is no great indicator of ability or future potential. it's just an arbitrary test in a format that can be learned. The child who misses by a mark or two but gets in on appeal quietly likely is just as able as the child who gets in with a higher score after weekly tutoring. It's unlikely that someone who is completely unable to pass would have a school recommending that they try at all, so it's not really there to sift out the less able.

So - speak to the school, look into some help outside school with maths if you're concerned about it and also do eyes and ears. 1 term does not a disaster make. Let us know how it goes.

"Homework can be interesting and useful without necessarily being really challenging all the time."

Really? Anything that my children could do while simultaneously watching TV I would certainly classify as neither challenging, interesting nor useful. I would rather they were just watching TV! Background music is a different thing- many of us like music to work to.

"They teach to the highest level in the class and it's up to students who don't understand to find a way to catch up. Hence continued tutoring."

Is this really true? It's pretty awful teaching if it is, to have no differentiation in the lessons. I listened to a very interesting r4 podcast in The Educators series somebody linked here the other day, and the single biggest factor behind success at school, over and above even factors like home background etc, is good quality teaching. Yet because most of us don't know what that is, we look at stuff which is massively less relevant when choosing a school, like class sizes and streaming, homework, uniform. I'll try to find the link.

Sorry but I did my whole school career and college homework with a tv in the background. I hate a perfectly quiet room, exam rooms I found very difficult, I needed the background chatter. Everyone one is different, just because you cannot study with a TV on doesn't mean other people can't. DS1 is currently typing up AS notes on his computer with a episode of Lewis running in the corner of the screen!

Here we are. It was very interesting- I'd really recommend it to anybody who wants to know more about what makes an effective school.

""They teach to the highest level in the class and it's up to students who don't understand to find a way to catch up"

Well, that's what bad grammar schools do. Like any other bad school that does not differentiate properly. It's really bizarre how people play merry hell if a comprehensive school is thought to teach to the level of the lower ability kids but it's somehow a good thing to teach to the top of the class in a grammar. It's presumably because people always think it's going to be their child up there being a frontrunner. Typical of the whole "devil take the hindmost" philosophy of the selective system.

I would not move him straightaway - maths is the sort of subject where you can have a crisis of confidence (particularly if the teacher is not that good) and get into the 'I can't do it' frame of mind, and this can happen to kids who are good at maths.

Oh, and if you want to listen to something genuinely fascinating about the best way to learn maths (and understand how the way it's often taught in schools can be counterproductive), this programme in the same series is very informative.

Dd has just started in year 7 and, so far as I can see, much of what is taught in lessons requires no previous knowledge in the subject. History, Geography, French, IT and science, all have started with lessons which start from the beginning of whatever topic is being covered. Perhaps only English and maths require some previous ability.

They don't teach to any particular level, they just teach them all new thing together.

As I said earlier, the topics can all be found on BBC bitesize, KS3 or in other areas of the internet if a child is struggling to understand or has missed something in class.

As far as we are aware it only seems to be maths that DS is struggling with. When we ask him about other subjects he says that he doesn't struggle in lessons and he thinks that he keeps up. I guess the exams will tell us where he is across the board.

They are having exams to set them in all subjects including humanties and languages as well as english maths and science. Is this normal? I've never heard of being set in humanities and languages subjects?

I understand that being in a grammar school we expect him to be pushed and stretched in his learning. However, in maths he says that they get taught a topic and then get between 15-30mins to practise and then move on. I never remember not getting time to practice properly in lessons, we used to be set question after question.

We will see how he does in the tests. I think that if he is middle or top in some subjects and it is only maths that is shown up to be the topic he struggles with we will stick with the school and maybe look at tutoring to boost his maths.

There are plenty of homework tasks you could do faster if you gave them your full attention, or to a higher standard, but that doesn't mean they're a complete waste of time if you don't - just that a change of pace is nice sometimes.