'State schools are creating amoral children'

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...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

I disagree with the argument that state schools are unable to offer as broad/enriched an education as offered by private schools.

I'm not keen on league tables and testing in the state sector. But I can compare the state experience of my dcs with the private prep experience of my nephews - spent a fair amount of time in both schools.

I personally found that the private school appeared to spend much more time teaching to the test (just a different test - 11+ rather than SATS) than my dc's school. We looked round the private recently out of interest and to make sure that we were confident with our decision to state educate. The private/independent year3 class were in exam preparation - silent writing task. The head said that approx. 1 day a week in KS2 was set aside for prep work for year 6 exams (not a common entrance school). I felt personally that the school was much more obsessed about test performance than the dc's state school, where at least the testing relates to a taught curriculum rather than NVR skills and "how to write the perfect 11+ story". Probably because the USP of the independent school in this case is getting as many kids through into selective secondaries.

Of course there are some independent schools that don't do this.

I just feel strongly that it is plain wrong to suggest that state schools don't have care for the moral education and development of their children and that suggesting that league tables and test culture is at the root of this is not reasonable or fair.

The prep school I mentioned is very near to the London Borough of Sutton which has three super selective boys' grammars. They are desirable and I believe only take the top 5% as there is no catchment. There are also private boys' schools in Croydon that have 11+ exams (and 10+)

They are seen as very desirable I mean.

I do see your point about pushy crammers and parental demand for state grammar test success being somewhat different to the common entrance/big name public school admissions process.

I'm pretty certain however that there are way more 'pushy crammers' out there than relaxed prep schools where results come second to moral development.

happygardening I don't need you to explain the situation to me. I live in the SW Herts Consortium catchment (Parmiters, Watford Boys Grammar, Watford Girls Grammar to name a few). Most of the prep schools in the area are being used to prepare children for the 11 plus.

The preps provide a two pronged approach. The vast majority of the children who attend the preps will be prepared for and sit 11 plus. If they don't pass or get the school place they want, they stay on at the prep and do the CE exams. Two birds with one stone, so to speak.

There are no specialist 11 plus preps in this area and they all charge approx. the same fee wise i.e. £3,000 - £4,000 per term (perhaps that is cheap as far as preps. go, I've not really looked at preps outside the area).

The reason I know this is that two children left my DCs class before Easter to join a local prep. in the run up to the 11 plus exams.

speedwell as I said responding to parental demand. As Terry Leahy (past CEO Tesco) said when asked why Tesco was do successful? "We give the customer what the customer wants".
The state can never offer the same broad/enriched education as some independent school because it lacks both the school hrs and the money but this doesn't mean that the independent sector or the state sector for that matter have a monopoly on developing fully a child's moral compass because it's more complicated than that.

I know. I assumed that was why they offer it

Mumtrying I've just looked up the day fees for my DS's old prep £5600 per term where are a nearby crammer for the grammar is charging £2835.

Meant to say old prep is only a 13+ school no preparation/help for the local grammar schools offered.

"There were children there who were fighting, thieving, swearing at staff, and all we heard were excuses because of their backgrounds. Learning was continually diluted due to disruption. All we heard were excuses. A thirteen year old got pregnant, all we heard were excuses."

Absolutely. That's what outstanding state schools are like. Quite agree. Every one of them.

I can only speak from my own experiences of state/indy. The comp (outstanding and sought after) we sent dd to did not underpin any of our values at home in relation to good manners, honesty, moral compass, high expectations, etc. It said it did but the reality was otherwise and when we met with the head we were not impressed with the response "this is a comp; what do you expect; we have to differentiate and can't expect deprived children to behave as well as those from leafy primaries". Not my view - the children can't exceed expectations and if expectations are low that's the end.

Both indys son's and daughter's have responded very differently and I think have operated in accordance with a better moral compass and do have a clearer idea of right from wrong and embed our own values.

I was shocked at the sloppy attitudes at dd's comp to be honest and the acceptance that theft, violence, foul mouthedness, under age sex, continual disruption went with the comprehensive territory. It didn't go with the territory when I was 11 it was totally frowned upon and not tolerated.

It's mud slinging. The values in some private schools might be different to those in some state schools but it's a bit much to accuse the other camp of being a breeding ground for amoral DC (or even just implying something like that).

"this is a comp; what do you expect;"

I call bullshit. I refuse to believe that any head teacher, particularly one of a school judged outstanding, said anything of the sort.

pooka interestingly the above mentioned heads school does offer preparation for local state grammars.
There's one of those nauseating videos on the schools website and it implies that extra curricular activities e.g. sport and music promotes self discipline and self motivation.
The fees are only £2200 by the way.

I reported to school that my youngest had been cornered and verbally taunted over something by a Y6 boy on Monday this week (dc told me that evening as they said it was indoors where they couldn't just run away and they felt scared as the Y6 kid was surrounded by some of his Y6 mates at the time so it was four/five 11 year olds against a 7 year old). I know the child in question and this needs nipping in the bud.....

Apparently they're going to say nothing to the boy as he's doing SATS all week and they don't want to upset him, it would be unfair whilst he's in the middle of tests and it's probably just the pressure getting to the Y6's.

As the mother of a Y6 girl I am not impressed.

Speaks volumes really though. The cocky Y6 kids SATS results are more important than him being swiftly and appropriately rebuked for something.

happygardening I am guessing the area I live in is far cheaper with regards to independent/private education generally.

Merchant Taylors doesn't charge as much as you DS old prep: www.mtsn.org.uk/admissions/fees

Nor does

Haberdashers' Aske's Boys' School:
habsboys.org.uk/info/fees1415.php

Nor does

Haberdashers' Aske's School for Girls
www.habsgirls.org.uk/general.php?area=admissions&page_id=2

Old prep was primarily feeding into Eton current fees £11090 per term, Harrow £11095 per term, Kings Canterbury £10075 per term, and Beneden £10800 per term you've got to get used to stumping up that kind of money from when your children are very young!

I asked the genuine question above do others think that extra curricular activities and a broader eduction do give you a good moral compass?

Interesting question, happy gardening. It made me think about the term 'broad minded'. I think being exposed to a broad range of people, subjects, experiences, hobbies, skills, political views, religions, etc. etc. etc. makes you more likely to be tolerant, and to think deeply about things, and to care about people other than yourself, which I would equate with having a good 'moral compass'.

No individual school, in our current system, will excel at all of those things. On extra-curricular activities, private schools are likely to win. On breadth of curriculum, it's probably easier for a private school that is so inclined to offer a very broad curriculum, but I suspect not all are, and many state schools do a brilliant job of achieving this within the confines of a national curriculum. On socio-economic diversity, state schools will obviously win. On ethnic mix, I suspect in most cases state schools will win, but there are obviously examples of private schools that are more ethnically diverse than the local state school.

Sats an interesting point you made. I know of a boy in a similar situation currently sitting his GCSE's whose just about to be told off for his misbehaviour. We asked the school to wait till after he sat one if his GCSE's as we knew it was going to unsettle him and we has all worked (including the school) so hard to get him ready for it and he isn't the world strongest candidate in this subject. Does it really matter if the school waits a few days?

I know the head didn't say that state schools were full of feral illiterates, I said he was feeding into the media myth and parental fear that they are. Of course he is and he knows it. It's what a lot of private-school parents believe (I know because they've told me things about my kids' school that I know to be untrue).

It's a very broadly held belief, stoked by media stories, and I'm sure this head knows that you don't need to do more than make a weeny implication to add to the fire.

You get a good moral compass by living in an ordered environment where people are treated with respect and where people play by the rules because they know the rules are for their own good. Not by meeting people who have a different skin colour or bank balance.

happygardening you've got to get used to stumping up that kind of money from when your children are very young

I disagree, you only need to get used to stumping up that kind of money if you are looking for your DCs go to the likes of Eton, Harrow, Kings Canterbury and Beneden. I've just listed three private schools that don't charge anywhere near that. I think you have just demonstrated just how wide a range of offerings are in the private/independent school sector.

Arrogant git. Apparently private schools spend loads of time imbuing their children with care for environmental issues among other things (as they get picked up every day by dad's massive SUV). Sport, culture, etc etc.
It's a wonder any of them learn enough to get into uni.
Certainly at primary school level they spend lots of times on moral stuff.

One of my first cousins went to Benenden, reasonably recently. Pfffff. Not exactly a good use of cash.

My children's state primary school is fabulous in encouraging children to be honest and caring

They are rewarded for these skills with a certificate from the head teacher presented at assembly

They work on relationships and caring and respect in there lessons.

I don't rely think that person knows what they are talking about