'State schools are creating amoral children'

[BurgenSnurgen]

...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

Madd I doubt state schools teach "leftie, egalitarian, echo-type with underlying communist urges" ethics anymore that independent schools do.

To be serious- what he appears to be going to say (how odd to be commenting on a speech before it's made- reminds me of my old days as a Thick of It type person) is that private schools have more time and money for extra curricular studies and activities. Who knew?

The way I see comprehensive state education, it's not a matter of teaching inclusion and equality, more of practising it. In my children's schools you don't need money, particular views, or any religion, or to pass any test. And they make great efforts (IMO) to value all the children equally and give them an appropriate education.

I consider this morally desirable. I love the ethics my children are being exposed to in this system.

They may not teach them (although ours comes close) but they come closer to embodying them. In as much as state school is open to everyone regardless of income and you are not selected on the basis of wealth.

Are extra curricular studies and activities intrinsically associated to the teaching of right and wrong? (Genuine question)

As Hilaire Belloc so nicely put it:

Like many of the upper class,
He liked the sound of breaking glass.

Going on the activities of the Bullingdon Club, I feel that I can extrapolate that all public school pupils are glass-breaking thugs, who only avoid prison because of their expensive lawyers.

Gosh, do I get to be quoted on the font page of the Times?

That does seem daft - in our school, moral/ethical behaviour, treating other people with respect etc isn't an extra, it's just an ingrained approach which obviously makes the most sense and reflects how things work in society. We're all supposed to learn how to behave day-to-day, not go to special morality clubs when we have a spare evening.

I accept sofishy that being open to everyone (providing you meet their admission criteria and get a place in your choice of school which appears to an issue for many on MN) does embody the principles of inclusion and equality. But it would be equally as wrong as the above mentioned head to state that independent schools don't teach/promote/believe in inclusion and equality.

I think most schools in both sectors promote the concept of treating people with respect etc, and that it's an ingrained approach which makes the most sense and reflects how society works.

The reasons why it's a report on a speech that hasn't been given is that - and this is standard practice - it's been given to journalists in advance by the press office. I used to do this too in my days of running press offices before I jumped ship to become a hack. Politicians do it all the time, that's why you'll read 'X is expected to say'.

AIBU to read an undercurrent of 'we don't get the grades but we do produce Fine Upstanding Chaps'?

The way I see comprehensive state education, it's not a matter of teaching inclusion and equality, more of practising it.

This.

Sorry- by " extra curricular" in this context, I meant non academic stuff. But I don't think he is/will be really talking about morality, is/will he? He's talking about the rounded broad education that some private schools do so well, and which is harder to provide in the time/money strapped state sector.

It is the parents job to teach right from wrong PHSE didn't exist when we went to school as parents could be bothered to do this.
Yes, wider society and school are responsible for up holding and encouraging good behaviour, but it needs to be taught at home.
The problem is discipline, by this I don't mean punishment.
Parents are too busy, schools don't have the time, cc workers are only allowed to do so much and aren't the parents anyway.
Nobody is taking the responsibility, so can't say as I'm surprised.

The only friend of mine who has sat in a classroom with a mass murderer went to Eton.
(This is true btw, he was the crown prince of Nepal).
Not saying every public school is full of them, but that private schooling is no prophylactic against a criminal life (see also Darius Guppy, Lord Lucan et al).

I think you're right Mart he's really talking about "well rounded individual" not moral versus amoral individuals.

Really, I do think schools have a huge part in providing children with a moral compass. It's all very well saying parents should do it, but it's a bit like sex education. Of course parents should but many don't. So school has to stand ready to take up the slack.

Because school is the only chance a lot of kids get.

playfortoday in my previous life as a lawyer I've met hundreds and hundreds of criminals (including a fair few murderers).

The vast majority attended state school.

But crime is linked with poverty, not morality IMVHO...

I agree Mart society in general surely plays a part in providing children with a moral compass it's not just the job of a parent/school. I would like it if moral stances like the do unto others etc and similar would be do etched into parts of our society that children witness in all aspecps of their lived not just in small isolated sections.

"But crime is linked to poverty, not morality IMVHO"
Not just in your very honest opinion but in all published research as well, poverty is the trap that creates so many of the problems in our society sadly our government is he'll bent on increasingly penalising those at the bottom of pile.

I think Richard Warden's comments are one of the most revolting things I have read this year.

In what ways do independent schools provide a moral compass where state schools do not?

Most crime is squalid, nasty and linked to disadvantage and poverty. So is unlikely to be committed by people who went to private school.

Although the educational background of the vast majority of tax evaders might be worth looking at. As would the moral compass of successive Front Benchers and Cabinet members.

One of the major problems in society is that the so-called elite do not provide an example of how to behave in a moral, principled way, as they ride roughshod over others and think the more money and power they have that morals do not apply to them. The vast majority of these people came from a highly privileged and well-connected background and went to independent schools.

I think his words have been slightly taken out of context or misunderstood either deliberately or accidentally. I think he's saying that independent schools are not always so obsessed with results/league table thus can offer in a limited school day a broader education and thus produce more rounded individuals rather than more moral ones.

Also we live in a very unequal society where money can buy you a better education. How is that moral, Mr Warden?