'State schools are creating amoral children'

[BurgenSnurgen]

...because state schools are under so much pressure to improve results that there's no time to teach them right from wrong.

So says Chairman of the Independent Schools Association

Bit speechless really. It's giving me the absolute RAGE.

I completely agree with him and it's why we removed our daughter from an outstanding CofE comprehensive.

There were children there who were fighting, thieving, swearing at staff, and all we heard were excuses because of their backgrounds. Learning was continually diluted due to disruption. All we heard were excuses. A thirteen year old got pregnant, all we heard were excuses.

I had no confidence that the people leading the school had any cognizance of right and wrong and did not feel the school was operating under an acceptable moral compass.

I doubt any one has ever said have lots of money makes you a particularly moral person. But just because you went to an independent school and your parents could afford it doesn't mean that you're amoral either.
Serious tax evasion by its nature is more likely to be committed by the very wealthy the comfortably off are very often on PAYE and those living in extreme poverty are unlikely to even pay tax.

"A thirteen year old got pregnant all we heard were excuses"
Like what? This is not a school issue if it only it was them it could be easily addressed and prevented. This is a tragedy usually created by a variety of problems.

I'm not sure how a 13 year old being pregnant is the schools fault

Also, teenage pregnancy does occur at private school but the girls are expelled as they are in breech of contract.

Learning was continually diluted due to disruption.

It won't be an outstanding school for long then.

How do private schools deal with discipline issues better than state schools? Or do they simply not have badly behaved children as they would expel them? Where does the expelled child then go to school???

"A thirteen year old got pregnant all we heard were excuses"

It's not the school's fault, and it's very possibly not the 13yo's fault either.

BurgenSnurgen:

Well it's headline grabbing isn't it.

It would be lovely if every child grew up truthful, hard-working, reliable and trustworthy - but I suspect that never was the case.

And if I'm honest, for all its flaws, St. Mediocre (my affectionate name for DD1's primary school) has help train DD1 to navigate a diversity of characters from privileged to highly deprived social backgrounds, from highly educated to poorly educated backgrounds, from British to foreign backgrounds, for English speaking to EAL backgrounds, able to disabled/ SN etc... And I suspect, that kind of real-life diversity is less likely to be the case in the independent sector.

In short - swings and roundabouts folks.

Pregnancy amongst teenage girls be they at independent or state school is a confidential assuming it's not a CP issue, many in both sectors will get pregnant and opt for a termination this is of no business of the schools.
Yes you could say the concept of private schools is amoral but so many other things are also only available to the wealthy; decent housing, decent care for the elderly, even decent high quality food. But this goes not mean that the children who attend them are amoral, many are exceedingly aware of how lucky they are and don't take it your granted.

Of course the majority if criminals are state educated.

And of course, it's linked to poverty.

Which is why when I see a rich criminal/tax evader I do look at them in terms of morality in a way that I wouldn't for a more standard-issue criminal.

And it still stands that private education doesn't seem to guarantee sound ethics. Neither sector does as mr head of St On Its Uppers Prep well knows if he weren't so desperate to feed the media stereotype of state schools being full of feral illiterates.

play you know he didn't say anything remotely like that, don't you?

Past the ethnic diversity in my DS's boarding school is significantly more diverse than at my DS1's middle class virtually all white comp, the class diversity if not the same but is probably no less narrow, at DS2's school all wealthy upper middle-class/upper class, oligarchs billionaires etc with 15% receiving significant financial assistance, DS1's school parents are comfortably off white MC with only .3% FSM. Many do enter a Winchester from EAL backgrounds and some do require help with this, 10% are identified as requiring learning support that's higher than DS1's school, neither are exposed to the extremely poverty at school and there are only 1-2 disabled. It is easy to make generalisations about schools in both sector but often generalisations are just that. DS1's school like most of our DC's school reflects the "real life diversity" in the places we have chosen to make our homes.

My experience of several Early Years settings and state primary is that there's a huge emphasis on kindness, caring, social values etc. Much more so than 'in my day'.

I went to a private secondary and don't remember anything in the way of 'values' being taught - teachers were pretty distant figures who didn't really interact with the pupils beyond teaching their subjects and making sure they weren't escaping from the premises when not in lessons. Very little in terms of pastoral care - we were left very much to our own devices when it came to emotional support.

Play can I suggest you read the article linked above even the Guardian headline incorrect. No one on here even indepdnent eds. staunchest supporters have said that it guarantees a sound ethic.

"pastoral care" is very much the buzz word amongst many independent schools at the moment especially the boarding ones. With so many achieving good results and having similar facilities etc many parents closely scrutinise and question standards of pastoral care when choosing a school. Many independent schools are trying to set themselves apart from other by offering services not available in the state sector.

No early teenage pregnancy isn't the school's fault but it would have been nice if the other children had received some guidance about underage sex, the fact it is illegal, contraception, empowerment to support consensual sex, empowerment to say no, advice about stable loving relationships, advice about where help was available etc..

The stark contrast between what my state school taught us 40 years ago and right wrong and what was taught to my dd was shocking. We didn't have things like PSHE and Citizenship but right and wrong and how we should conduct ourselves was threaded through the school community which was led by very sensible women who were passionate about their girls and about their vocation.

The independent sector does exclude those can't or won't behave. And quite rightly. That should also be the case in the state sector. What the state sector needs are more specialist units to deal with those who cannot be dealt with in the mainstream without seriously affecting the achievement and enjoyment and love of knowledge of those around them.

Not all independent schools expel on the spot those who can't or won't behave some work really hard to try and improve this behaviour they feel a genuine moral obligation to help these children and often only expel them after every avenue has been explored and exhausted. Teenagers from all back grounds misbehave, it's normal, and many independent schools do realise this.

I was equally gobsmacked and LIVID when I heard this on the radio this morning.

Because privately educated children have faultless morals?

Is a load of state school teacher bashing.

Dd's school has loads of phse, philosophy for children and circle time talking about good choices, bad choices, bullying, internet safety, doing the right thing ad infinitum.

I know a teacher at Westminster who has to deal with immensely pressured kids from very pushy families. My nephews and nieces are all privately educated. I can see no difference between their moral compasses and those of my own state-educated children, apart from perhaps a little less tolerance of "difference" in the privately educated kids which they all grew out of by the time they went to university.

What the state sector needs are more specialist units to deal with those who cannot be dealt with in the mainstream without seriously affecting the achievement and enjoyment and love of knowledge of those around them.

Don't worry, NearTheWindymill, I've just got my DS into a nice little school for children with emotional and behavioural issues arising from SN, so your precious little darlings aren't likely to encounter him anytime soon. It's private, btw, with fees that make Eton seem cheap. You're paying for that out of your taxes, btw.

pooka can I suggest you also read the article liked in above, the head is suggesting that independent schools are able to offer a broader and more enriching education due to spending less time worrying about league tables/exam results and box ticking for inspections and this gives their children a broader moral compass that they need for life. I asked the genuine question above do others think that extra curricular activities and a broader eduction do give you a good moral compass?
I agree that many independent schools are equally as result/league table obsessed and many have exceedingly pushy parent so it's a bit of a generalisation.

angelos02 Erm...isn't that the job of the parents?

I fully agree.

It's in his interest to say that because he is trying to get more customers for private schools.

I think he'll find it's not. If he convinces parents that independent/private schools do a better job of instilling morals, perhaps the parents who are failing (or CBA doing it themselves) will bung their kids across for the schools to do the job for them. I'm not sure they will benefit from this in the long run.

"A local boys' prep has a billboard up along the side of the road saying that they are the only school entirely focused on the 11+. It sounds thrilling at that school!"

So an independent school preparing children for state schools rather than private. I wonder why that is?

NearTheWindymill The independent sector does exclude those can't or won't behave.

Not always. My DS has just had a DC join his class. He had been attending a private prep. for the last three years.

Yesterday my son told me that he is really sorry but there is a large hole in his shoe. He then went on to explain that the new DC had got into an argument with two other boys and threatened to "kick their heads in". He then proceeded to kick my DS shoes all around the cloak room in a fit of rage. I'm looking forward to the discussion with the teacher regarding the replacement of my DSs shoes which he has only had since Easter.

The DC has only been at the school for three weeks and the mother has been called to the school on numerous occasions. I am quite astonished, if schools in the independent sector are so quick to exclude those who don't behave, how did he lasted 3 years with this kind of behaviour.

"A local boys prep school,has a billboard up along side the road saying they are the only school that entirely focuses on the 11+.
So an independent school preparing children for state schools rather than other private . I wonder why that is?"
I doubt the reason is very Machiavellian, the school is responding to parental demand. Many parents are prepared and as importantly are able to pay for pushy little crammer for the grammar preps as their fees are usually not in the same range as preps routinely feeding into big name senior schools. But as most senior independent schools are significantly more expensive they either don't have the money or feel happy with the GS alternatives but first get your DC into one and that they will pay for.

Absolutely Mumtrying there were some very badly behaved children at my DS's boarding prep who considerable effort was expended trying to help, I think no one wanted to admit that they couldn't help one, and I'm sure there are badly behaved children at my DS2's senior school there certainly are at other independent schools. Some take these children (even on bursaries) hoping that a change in approach environment etc will help.