Wearing make-up and hitching up skirts is unfair on MALE TEACHERS - Y10 girls told.

[Spidermama]

DD - just about to turn 15 - tells me a special assembly was called at her school to tell Y10 girls that their attitude to school uniform is appalling and influencing the Y7. (Personally I think they all look very smart on the whole and don't see many uniform crimes apart from a very small handful of girls).

She came home hurt at being shouted at en masse in this way (there are 11 classes per year in her school so year 10 girls constituted as large group).

She says the comments were very personal. Words like 'pathetic' were used but most worryingly of all for me was the comment about how the way they're dressing is unfair on male teachers.

Am I right to feel the need to bring this up with the school?

If that is what you want to read in to posters opinions curlew then that is your prerogative.

Are you saying that I'm wrong?

It definitely looks like a lot of people still think like that Curlew.

I think it is OK to point out that, teenager or not, school is not the appropriate venue to experiment with the arse-hanging-out-of-skirt look. Or are we even supposed to draw a blind eye to a student turning up naked in school, too? After all, on a hot day, why shouldn't they? Why should they cover up to avoid others' embarrassment?

This has nothing to do with telling young women to modify their dress to suit the needs of men. It has nothing to do with the argument about women in general being blamed for sexual violence because they were dressed in a provocative manner.

The young women are being asked to modify their dress so that it adheres to the uniform rules of the school. As a side effect of not adhering to the uniform rules it does put male teachers in a difficult position. Some 15 year olds do respond to requests to roll down their skirts/do up top buttons with "Are you looking at my legs/tits sir? Sir's a perv." This can be disruptive to lessons and from groups of teenagers can be intimidating. Teachers (male or female) should not have to tolerate aggressive or abusive behaviour. Yes it is the behaviour of a minority of pupils, but it has a simple solution - to wear uniform correctly.

I remember asking a girl to roll down her skirt as it was above the level of the crotch of her tights. Some pupils will go to extremes in attempting to make their uniform a fashion statement.

I think that schools should have signs, like you get in hospitals and other public places saying "aggressive or violent behaviour towards our staff will not be tolerated under any circumstances". Some teachers have to put up with some awful behaviour from pupils. I remember a colleague being falsely accused of something by a couple of girls. While the school did sort it out, I don't think he ever got an apology from the girls. It can be a very sad profession.

"The young women are being asked to modify their dress so that it adheres to the uniform rules of the school" Which is, obviously, perfectly fine. Absolutely, copper bottomed, no problem fine.

What is not fine is then telling them that the way they dress is not fair on male teachers.

No, it should have been made explicit that it's not fair on anyone to expose your underwear to the school. It's not as if most people think that's only inappropriate because of school uniform policy.

Curlew, I think a lot of people are saying that these children are dressing Inappropriately for school, and that it is difficult for a male teacher to comment on this due to a culture in our schools where some pupils will make too much of it and call the member of staff perv etc.

I have seen this happen on a number of occasions, one where there was a leak in the girls changing rooms and they were changing in the boys (boys in gym changing). The deputy head went straight into the changing rooms as he had done many times and walked in to a room of bra clad girls. He was branded a perv by every girl in the school - just happened that the PE dept had not thought to tell anyone about the leak. The deputy left the next year.

Of course women should be able to dress how they like, but ultimately these are children and should dress as such. Have seen many sights as mentioned in my previous post. Kids forget desks are open at the front!

Is there any good way of dealing with this? I assume that requesting that pupils adhere to uniform rules isn't working.

Saying that it makes male teacher uncomfortable, without the explanation that they are uncomfortable when they are accused of "being a perv" for enforcing the uniform rules, doesn't really give a clear message. It seems that some people are interpreting it as "your sexy modifications to your uniform are turning the male teachers on". I think that a fuller explanation would probably provoke more girls into accusing male staff of looking at them inappropriately as the girls would find it funny.

Yes, the girls do find it funny that only one male teacher out side the SLT can be bothered to fuss about skirt length.

It's a standing joke amongst DDs friends when dressed up to grin an say Mr X wouldn't approve of that skirt.

I should add Mr X is a good teacher and in my very good books for helping DD1

Breathe completely agree with you. Think its completely ott especially as noone is hundred percentage sure as too what was actually said in the assembly.

Surely if a male teacher was a perv he wouldn't be asking them to cover up would he? Some (polite, unassailable) version of that would be my comeback. The accusation of perv to someone who is asking you to cover up is nonsense and should be responded to as nonsense.

What the girls described as deliberately trying to make male teachers uncomfortable are doing is basically sexual harassment and bullying. It would be labelled that way if it was a boy trying to make a female teacher uncomfortable with delibarate sexual behaviour and self-expopsure. Maybe HTs should address it like that, with the individual girls responsible, making it very clear that it is illegal in the workplace, could lose them their job if they behave like that when older, and impose very serious consequences for it - perhaps bringing in the police - all in a context of equality i.e the behaviour is out of line, from any pupil, to any teacher, other pupil or anyone else.

It should be a separate issue from uniform rules and uniform rules too should be a matter of equality - as special subject said earlier - to ALL pupils that the rule is that they dress decently and don't show underwear.

curlew you are effectively saying that anyone can dress how they like and not have to think about how it effects anyone else. I could under what you are saying wear a t-shirt that had rape slogans on it to work and you should just have to put up with it.

In this case what ladybigtoes has posted is essentially correct.

When we used to have uniform tellings off, the usual line was that we were the business women of tomorrow, and the school uniform was designed to reflect office-appropriate wear, and if what you were wearing was too short or tight or low-cut for an office, then it was too short or tight or low-cut for school. That's a more appropriate way of handling it, I think.

When a boy at school was killed, and we went to the funeral, without being told, we all adhered to the uniform policy closely, far more closely than we did day to day - and looked pretty smart. Even as teenagers, we knew when it really counted.

"curlew you are effectively saying that anyone can dress how they like and not have to think about how it effects anyone else. I could under what you are saying wear a t-shirt that had rape slogans on it to work and you should just have to put up with it."

No, I'm not. I am talking very specifically.

Well, I agree with LadyBigtoes - deliberately trying to make male teachers uncomfortable is bullying, nasty, unacceptable behaviour and you deserve to be confronted over it and made to realise you are being every bit as despicable as a boy or man trying to make you feel small by commenting on what they imagine to be your sexual proclivities.

Just showing off your knickers, without then going on to accuse a male teacher who tells you this is inappropriate that he is a perv for noticing, however, is just a severe error in good taste and decency, but not bullying.

"Well, I agree with LadyBigtoes - deliberately trying to make male teachers uncomfortable is bullying, nasty, unacceptable behaviour and you deserve to be confronted over it and made to realise you are being every bit as despicable as a boy or man trying to make you feel small by commenting on what they imagine to be your sexual proclivities."

Absolutely!!!!!

I think that it can form part of bullying. One such comment might not be bullying, but it can be part of a range of intimidating behaviour that together form bullying.

Falsely and unfairly publically accusing a teacher of being a pervert is defamatory.

I wonder would the teacher have a case against the student (via their parents) or against the school.

Some girls bully and make false accusations.

Deal with those girls.

Even nice girls wear short skirts! Lots roll them up - it was better when the fashion was tighter skirts believe it or not, now they are skater style it is even worse!

I think the school assessed the problem and decided it better to make it a full assembly, to cover the nice girls who wear short skirts too.

curlew

Do you believe that people have a right to not to be made to feel uncomfortable in their work place by the actions of others?

"Some girls bully and make false accusations.

Deal with those girls."

Really?

And how exactly would you decide which are false accusations and which not?

Would you decide that certain girls are likely to have made false accusations based on past behaviour perhaps?
Some girls are more likely to make false accusations?

I think that, rightly, all accusations are dealt with seriously and therein lies the problem and the reason it is less fair for men - as per the OP's question.