Wearing make-up and hitching up skirts is unfair on MALE TEACHERS - Y10 girls told.

[Spidermama]

DD - just about to turn 15 - tells me a special assembly was called at her school to tell Y10 girls that their attitude to school uniform is appalling and influencing the Y7. (Personally I think they all look very smart on the whole and don't see many uniform crimes apart from a very small handful of girls).

She came home hurt at being shouted at en masse in this way (there are 11 classes per year in her school so year 10 girls constituted as large group).

She says the comments were very personal. Words like 'pathetic' were used but most worryingly of all for me was the comment about how the way they're dressing is unfair on male teachers.

Am I right to feel the need to bring this up with the school?

I agree totally you should complain but I would not assume that it was said exactly the way reported.

The thing with these types of conversations is that the borderline girls will get upset and the worst offenders will probably ignore the whole thing.

I wouldn't be happy with this either. Yes, schools should have a decent uniform policy - which should be adhered to by ALL pupils (I can never understand parents who actually argue with the school that their DC should be able to wear bottom-skimming skirts, trainers etc. - but that's another thread).

Incidents of indecent assault (or worse) between teacher and pupil are NEVER the pupil's fault. They are (whether they like it or not) still children.

In short, I agree with the message (correct uniform must be worn) but not the reasoning (a male teacher might not be able to help himself, poor thing).

Most of the girls at DS1's secondary wear trousers now, and they look very smart on the whole. I collect him every day & have seen very few inappropriately short skirts.

DS2 goes to a different secondary where trousers are banned for girls. They have a huge problem with bottom-skimming, mega tight, boob-tube type skirts!

I'm with the others her who say that it's fine for the school to insist on a uniform code, and to remind pupils what that is - but that it's totally outrageous to make the comment about it being unfair on male teachers. That insults the students and the teachers, and is really victim-blamey to boot.

If you don't want to go in guns blazing, you can always ask the school what was said.

Outrageous. I would kick up a huge fuss. I'm not one to go into school for every little thing, but this is completely out of order.

I know they have introduced a new policy on skirt length at my daughters' school - we/they were warned last term about it. I believe (from an insider friend) that this was partly due to male teachers feeling very uncomfortable when walking upstairs - although the pupils have not been told this. I do agree with the new policy and agree that teachers should not be made to feel uncomfortable by pupils' dress codes. I am involved with a youth group and have certain 'rules' to make sure I never feel in a 'compromising position' - e.g. would not be on my own in a room with 1 teenager etc. - all adults nowadays need to ensure that they are in a position where no complaints could maliciously be made. Unfortunately that is the way life is now.

I think parents should politely remind whoever gave the assembly that male teachers should understand that the people they teach are children, not young women trying to lure older men into bed.

So let me get this right.

If the male teachers feel awkward or embarrassed due to how the girls are dressing that is the fault of the male teachers? They should avert their eyes when walking up the stairs? (Personally I like to look ahead when walking up stairs in a crowd, that way I can see where I'm going).

But if your daughter chooses to feel hurt / humiliated at being talked to / shouted at en masse in a personal way (isn't that a contradiction anyway?) then that is not her responsibility / fault to choose to react that way, but also the responsibility / fault of the teachers?

The girls were told to dress appropriately. They wouldn't have had to be told this if they were all following the dress code. Maybe the language wasn't as touchy-feely as you would like, but still. If your daughter is following the code, then she could have chosen to stand there listening, but knowing she was not the object of the complaint, rather than choosing to get upset about it. Maybe she should get cross with her peers who triggered the talk instead. It's life. Tough. Worry about her GCSEs instead.

Its perfectly possible to walk upstairs without looking at the bottom in front of you, i went to an all girl school with lots of stairs- i cant recall ever having to stare at another bottom. My eyes move around in their sockets.

Two different things, teenandtweens. Yes, kids should abide by the dress code. No problem with that. If they don't and it's the sort of school that bollocks kids then they should be bollocked. Because there is a dress code, they know what it is and they haven't kept it. Absolutely fine. Get over the bill king and get on with your GCSEs.

But telling them that they should modify their dress because male teachers might be embarrassed??????!!!!!!!! . Jesus wept, what are we teaching girls about taking responsibility for other people's feelings there?. What about men in the street? The bus driver?Do they need to consider their feelings before they decide what to wear in the morning?

The other thread was this school year I think, but I can't for the life of me remember if it was sec ed/ feminism chat or somewhere else entirely.

Should we not care about other people's feelings then?

When I first started working many years ago there was a culture amongst the men of sending back postcards of semi-naked women from their holidays, which were then displayed in the coffee area. I found this uncomfortable and said so. They stopped.
So should they have ignored my feelings and carried on because they liked looking at pictures of semi-naked women whilst at work?

Presumably the talk was triggered because some male teachers had spoken up in the staff room that they felt uncomfortable about the (non-regulation) clothes the girls were wearing. Why shouldn't that be mentioned? Perhaps they were trying to explain to the girls part of the reason for the dress code. Obviously a big mistake. They should have just said this is the code, abide by it, rather than trying to treat them more like adults and try to get them to understand the views/feelings of others in their school community.

I agree with TeenandTween, but think maybe the school could have said it was unfair on everybody.

I know they modified the school uniform at the school my DSes went to for similar reasons. The girls pushed the boundaries all the time. The shirt buttons were not being done up so you could see their bras, they wore their skirts really short, it was ridiculous. I know my boys were fed up with seeing their knickers as they went up the stairs and when they bent down to pick up their pens.

teenandtweens- you know when people say that a girl wearing provocative clothes is partly responsible if she's raped? The sort of thing old fashioned judges used to say? How do you feel about that?

Actually, though, it's not always a case of not wanting to see their underwear because it's provocative.

I don't want to see other people's knickers or indeed boxers at any point, thanks.

Possible exceptions made for small children and sometimesDH.

curlew. There is no excuse for rape.

However. If I parked my car leaving the keys in and the door wide open, and it was stolen, it would not be unreasonable of people to point out that I could have been more careful. Even though the stealer would be entirely responsible for their actions .

If a girl dresses in clothes showing off her 'assets', goes to a party and gets so drunk she is not in control of her judgement, and then chooses to go upstairs to a bedroom with a lad, who then rapes her, then although there is no excuse for the lad she could have helped more to keep herself safe. Though in this case, more with respect to the getting drunk than the clothes.

So no, not partly responsible.

Exactly, Kitties.

Oh god not that old fucking robbery/rape chestnut again.

If male teachers are 'uncomfortable' then they need to have a good look at themselves.

And the cultural differences argument carries no water. Why should teenage girls in mini skirts be responsible for another man's code of honour?

I would speak to the teacher in order to clarify what was said and express your anger that such victim blaming old rope was dished out to girls that age.

Yes, they should keep to the uniform, no problem with that. But that is not just girls in mini skirts, it will be boys as well with baggy arsed trousers and their ties done wrongly.

Showing off her assets? Could you please explain how any wan would go about hiding the fact she is female and in possession of a vagina? A woman can sit naked in a sauna and NOT be raped! She can be naked on a beach and NOT be raped. She can be naked AND drunk in bed with a man and NOT be raped. The only reason people are raped is because a rapist decides to rape them.

Wan= woman

TeenandTween, what you seem to be missing is that we are talking about children - even if they are past puberty, and look it - and adult men, their teachers. This isn't a negotiation amongst adults, and the idea that girls are told that they are somehow responsible for whether their adult teachers are somehow led to lust after them is unconscionable.

(And we are talking about lust, otherwise the assembly wouldn't have specified male teachers.)

Though, I have to say, I'd be pissed off if it was a negotiation amongst adults, too.

Just as you and I have the right to tell someone if their behaviour is making us uncomfortable, so too do the teachers. I doubt very much they feel like raping the girls, it's probably just a for gods sake its not appropriate, sort it out

If there is a uniform and they are not adhering to it then its quite acceptable for the teachers to underline what is and isn't acceptable.

I suspect the wording in assembly was just clumsy and not thought out.

We are talking about children, who are nearing adulthood.

As far as I can tell, here on mumsnet, most parents seem to think that by the time their child reaches 14 or 15 (so year 10) 'if they want to have sex they'll be having it' . Having sex is an adult act.

So 'mumsnet' can't really have it both ways can it? Are they children, approaching adults, or adults?

It seems to me that some people on here are so caught up in 'rights' of women / daughters that they forget that there are responsibilities too.

Members of staff feel uncomfortable with the way the y10 girls are dressing, which is also against the school uniform code. The girls were told this en masse (which ensures they all received a consistent message). They were asked to follow the school rules, and to consider how their breach might be making others feel. Why is that considered so wrong?

Agree with both BlueSky and TeenandTween.
This -- I suspect the wording in assembly was just clumsy and not thought out.

Also
All adults need to protective themselves against possible allegations. All pupils (and teachers!) should dress appropriately and follow the uniform code.

"
If a girl dresses in clothes showing off her 'assets', goes to a party and gets so drunk she is not in control of her judgement, and then chooses to go upstairs to a bedroom with a lad, who then rapes her, then although there is no excuse for the lad she could have helped more to keep herself safe. Though in this case, more with respect to the getting drunk than the clothes.

So no, not partly responsible."

She could have done more to keep herself safe- but she is not partly responsible. How does that work?