Wearing make-up and hitching up skirts is unfair on MALE TEACHERS - Y10 girls told.

[Spidermama]

DD - just about to turn 15 - tells me a special assembly was called at her school to tell Y10 girls that their attitude to school uniform is appalling and influencing the Y7. (Personally I think they all look very smart on the whole and don't see many uniform crimes apart from a very small handful of girls).

She came home hurt at being shouted at en masse in this way (there are 11 classes per year in her school so year 10 girls constituted as large group).

She says the comments were very personal. Words like 'pathetic' were used but most worryingly of all for me was the comment about how the way they're dressing is unfair on male teachers.

Am I right to feel the need to bring this up with the school?

Spidermama - is this the same school that organised an event where boys were sent to make a shelter and the girls told to organise the refreshments?

Or was that something completely different?

It does depend how much flesh is on show. But I have some sympathy for the staff.

How on earth is a male teacher of - for example - drama or music (where there is a lot of physical activity going on) supposed to teach a class of girls who are exposing boobs and thigh, without accidentally looking anywhere he's not supposed to? Because I'm not sure how you could teach some subjects without looking at your pupils . It's a complete minefield for a teacher, who is rightly concerned about how he is perceived as behaving.

Perhaps the staff would just like to get on with their jobs without having to be overly careful about where they look, just in case a girl gets the idea that sir is gazing at her boobs and decides to complain.

If the boys were exposing their assets to female staff, exactly the same issues would arise. But on the whole they don't do that. It's a girl thing.

"How on earth is a male teacher of - for example - drama or music (where there is a lot of physical activity going on) supposed to teach a class of girls who are exposing boobs and thigh, without accidentally looking anywhere he's not supposed to"

The same way he conducts himself in the rest of his life. Men are actually capable of self control, you know!

When I was a young woman, boys used to tell girls that if they got an erection and didn't ejaculate, they got something called "blue ball". Which could be fatal. So any girl that was "responsible" for an erection was therefore obliged to provide the "relief" as well. Many, many girls believed this. I sometimes think we haven't moved on much!

curlew, my mum told me something along those lines when I was a teenager - her attempt at a bit of sex education. That if they got an erection boys had to have an orgasm and so you had to wank them off or they "might not be able to help themselves" from raping you.

Very luckily, I was already very much of a feminist by 16 (partly in reaction against the horror of my parents' marriage) and thought it was as much shite as I do now. Still shocking though!

"How on earth is a male teacher of - for example - drama or music (where there is a lot of physical activity going on) supposed to teach a class of girls who are exposing boobs and thigh, without accidentally looking anywhere he's not supposed to?"

er, the same way the female teachers do! the same way all adults who are around children do when they children go swimming or pull their dress over their heads or do PE in those tiny pleated skirts or strip off at the beach. it doesn't even go on your radar unless you put it there!

The very same Blu. Well remembered.

I'm using some of the great contributions on here to help me write my letter. Thanks very much.

Trice thanks so much for that link.
DD has just read this thread and watched that link.
Great! Thank you all.

Reading between the lines it is possible (no means certain) that there have been one or two girls pushing boundaries.

If that is the case then it is very difficult to approach them without them turning round saying "Mr X is a pervert".

I have come across teachers put in a position of not knowing where to look, in this case it was a school holiday and there were many thongs on show above jeans. Male teachers did not feel comfortable pointing this out to teenage girls, but looking away risked safety as they were climbing walls, canoeing and putting up tents.

I also went to an all girls school and the behaviour StarfishTrooper describes went on, not so much to get the teacher in to bed (good catholic girls) but to make them uncomfortable as a kind of sport - 50 year old Irish priests were a particular specialty. See the opening scene of "Hush-A-Bye Baby"

If that is the case it is unfair on anyone not in that group, but not a lot that can be done about it.

If it is not the case then you are tight to be angry, as is your daughter. I do not understand why schools do not insist on culottes or trousers for girls, skirts have been wound up at the belt for generations.

Ha ha. So they had to keep looking at their thongs, and no doubt keep struggling with the uncontrollable carnal desires the thongs gave then, because it wasn't safe not to.

Ffs.

I do think the situation is not fair for male teachers.
Not for the reasons that some people have assumed - ie, that it might make them want to act on 'uncontrollable desires' and I think you would have to be careful implying that in a letter to the school too - but because I think it would be much harder for a male teacher to enforce the uniform rule. If they are not supposed to even be looking how can they possibly start to enforce the one rule that the pupils regularly breach? Would they really feel ok asking the girls to do up top buttons or unroll their skirts?
I can see the arguments about why the school shouldn't have phrased it like that because of the 'rape' analogies, but I can also see why a female teacher might have come down heavily on the girls in defence of her male colleagues who might be struggling with this.

I think that if they are not wearing uniform correctly/showing underwear/wearing skirts far too short (and not in accordance with uniform policy) they need to be shown it is not acceptable and won't be tolerated.

This is not just about the girls but about those around them.

The school did not handle this well - however they have a point.

"Male teachers did not feel comfortable pointing this out to teenage girls, but looking away risked safety as they were climbing walls, canoeing and putting up tents. "

Presumably this is not a serious comment? Please tell me it's not............

Seriously, people. Do you really not know any actual proper grown up adult men? How do your dps respond to a living room full of sleeping over teenage girls?

"Seriously, people. Do you really not know any actual proper grown up adult men? How do your dps respond to a living room full of sleeping over teenage girls?"

But that is a totally different situation. Not sure I follow this argument. Would your DP be comfortable telling these teenage girls to adjust their clothing?

if he was making a cup of tea in the kitchen and a girl in her pyjamas wandered in he certainly wouldn't pour boiling water on his foot like a character in a 50s sitcom.

Oh, and here's an idea. If for whatever reason a male teacher was uncomfortable asking a girl to "adjust her clothing" then why doesn't he get a female colleague to do it?

"Oh, and here's an idea. If for whatever reason a male teacher was uncomfortable asking a girl to "adjust her clothing" then why doesn't he get a female colleague to do it?"

Do you mean call in a female teacher every time the girls in the class hitch up their skirts - or ask them to call an assembly and tell them all at once ;)

I'm just saying that it is a different situation for men - and your last comment implies you agree in some way at least.

Well, if it was just a matter of telling them to unroll their skirts, if a male teacher felt he couldn't do that, he is obviously unsuited to the job.

"If they are not supposed to even be looking how can they possibly start to enforce the one rule that the pupils regularly breach? Would they really feel ok asking the girls to do up top buttons or unroll their skirts?"

why wouldn't they? It's just a case of telling them what the uniform rules are and asking them to apply them. Why wouldn't a teacher, presumably trained in classroom control, be able to apply the rules?

As I said, I suspect people on this thread have never actually met a properly grown up adult man.

curlew and ladybigtoes

I remember my mum telling me that once a man was turned/or had started it was impossible for him to stop. This was after we'd watched some storyline on Brookside. I remember being outraged but confused but then also sort of taking it in and believing it to a certain extent. I certainly felt responsible for mens frustration for ooh 20 years afterwards!

I also remember her telling me that if a boy asked me out I should go out with him to avoid hurting his feelings seeing as he'd gone to the trouble of asking. Never mind if I actually liked him! The one we were talking about at the time was a borderline stalker!

[cry]

Thought the youtube video was great.

curlew - no-one has said at all that men will have uncontrollable urges due to teenagers in short skirts. What was said, is that the male teachers felt uncomfortable. This would be because they want to ensure there are no grounds for false accusations/complaints etc. Dress should be appropriate for the circumstances/surroundings. Uniform policy should be adhered to.
Teenage girls can also be intimidating - I was one of those who thought it hilarious to sit on my maths teacher's knee and coo at him for a joke - it obviously was not funny at all for him but had the class in stitches.....and yes, as an adult I can see my behaviour was awful.
All adults looking after children have to ensure everything is done by the book and that they are never in a position where they may have accusations made against them etc.

"This would be because they want to ensure there are no grounds for false accusations/complaints etc. Dress should be appropriate for the circumstances/surroundings. Uniform policy should be adhered to. "

yes, uniform policy should be adhered to but that policy should NEVER be based upon the idea that women are to blame for men's responses and actions or that the way a person dresses makes them responsible for the wrongdoings of men. It also shouldn't assume that all men are victim to their uncontrollable desires. MOST grown up adult men do not react inappropriately to a bit of flesh showing. Most accusations made are not false.

Of course uniform policy should be adhered to.

But there shouldn't be extra bits added just for girls. And it is utterly unacceptable to tell girls that they have to dress in a particular way because of the effect they might have on the adult professional men who teach them.