Wearing make-up and hitching up skirts is unfair on MALE TEACHERS - Y10 girls told.

[Spidermama]

DD - just about to turn 15 - tells me a special assembly was called at her school to tell Y10 girls that their attitude to school uniform is appalling and influencing the Y7. (Personally I think they all look very smart on the whole and don't see many uniform crimes apart from a very small handful of girls).

She came home hurt at being shouted at en masse in this way (there are 11 classes per year in her school so year 10 girls constituted as large group).

She says the comments were very personal. Words like 'pathetic' were used but most worryingly of all for me was the comment about how the way they're dressing is unfair on male teachers.

Am I right to feel the need to bring this up with the school?

protective - I mean protect

I don't think it hurts for them to understand that not all people are nice and some people unfortunately judge who you are and your moral code from the way you dress.

I was groped and verbally abused in the street years ago - I was not in the wrong at all and the man who did it had no right to and was totally out of order.

It did make me grow up and give myself a mental kicking for being naive for bouncing down the street wearing a silk camisole with no bra. The guys in my office were apparently disappointed that I stopped connecting the phones under their desks and putting up the xmas decorations in my tiny, tiny skirts.

It's as if feminism never happened............

I thought feminism was about being considered equal not about having the right to show your fanny in public.

It is about, among other things, not being responsible for men's behaviour and feelings.

It it certainly about teenage girls not having to be responsible for the behaviour and feelings of adult male teachers

YES! bring it up with the school!

Oh come on if someone said x's male teacher wears really tight trousers/short shorts and makes her feel really uncomfortable - is that acceptable.

We cant pick and choose what its OK for a man to do and its ok for a woman to do

If behaviour is making someone feel uncomfortable then its fine for that to be communicated regardless of gender.

In typical mumsnet style we have jumped from it not being appropriate to girls being made responsible for rape and murder....this is why I do not tag myself a feminist despite knowing I am equal if not superior to any man

"Oh come on if someone said x's male teacher wears really tight trousers/short shorts and makes her feel really uncomfortable - is that acceptable." They would presumably not be appropriate wear for an adult in the workplace? But if they were, then her feelings of discomfort are her own responsibility. Unless he is thrusting his crotch in her face.

"In typical mumsnet style we have jumped from it not being appropriate to girls being made responsible for rape and murder....this is why I do not tag myself a feminist despite knowing I am equal if not superior to any man"

The point is the message we are sending the girls here. You have to modify your dress/behaviour to suit the convenience/comfort of men.You are responsible for men's feelings". Surely you can see that's a crap message to give our girls?

I assume the uniform has a minimum skirt length? Therefore that length is appropriate for school - the HT has every right to enforce that.

I don't believe we are responsible for other peoples feelings but we should be considerate of them and aware of possible consequences if we decide to do our own thing.

I think there is how we would like the world to be and how it is - i'd rather any child of mine was informed and realistic than idealistic and naïve.

I don't get this at all. On one part of MN you've got people saying that we shouldn't have page 3 and lads mags like FHM and Nuts should cover their covers if girls are on the front in their knickers because woman are better than that and the feminists have fought for us to be seen as equals, and it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Then on the otherhand it is ok for 15 year old school girls to hitch their skirts up so far that it makes male teachers feel uncomfortable, and if they do feel uncomfortable then it's tough shit!

"You know what men are like- they get all hot and bothered when they see a pretty girl and it's so difficult for them, poor things. So just do up one more button, there's a good girl. Otherwise Mr Thing won't be able to concentrate on teaching you maths, will he?"

Its ok for girls to let it all hang out, as long as men don't look ;-)

curlew - hear, here.

I'm seeing people saying here that it's right for the school to enforce the dress policy, but completely out of order to link that to how that affects the male teachers.

I don't see anyone saying that it's ok for girls to flout the uniform code, much less flash their fannies at school.

Actually I said the wording was clumsy and unacceptable if it made the OPs daughter feel bad and it should be discussed with the school.

I do agree with littlemisswise though - you can't have it both ways.

The teachers involved should watch

OMFG.

Objecting to this is not the same as saying girls should wear anything they like. It's reasonable to ask both girls and boys to dress decently/appropriately, whether that means not revealing your underwear, having a minimum skirt length or whatever.

It's how girls dress being "unfair on male teachers" that is the problem here.

A) This falsely singles out girls to lay the unfair blame on. What about female teachers (or gay male teachers) teaching teenage boys who may appear attractive or sexual? Oh yes, they are (quite rightly) supposed to behave professionally, deal with it and maintain the fitting professional distance. No one blames the boys.

B) It falsely singles out male teachers as victims. Straight female and gay male teachers as above face similar issues. And what about gay female teachers faced with make-up and short skirts? Oh no, they are not helpless victims either. Just the poor men.

C) Not only is it wrong in isolation, for the above reasons, it's also even worse because it springs straight from the kneejerk daily mail / misogynist tradition that women are responsible for men's lack of control - a message that infiltrates girls' and boys' lives constantly, and contributes to things like DV. So if the school have something to say to a hall full of y10 girls, it should be something that sends the OPPOSITE message, not something that backs it up.

How about spending the time telling girls they are equal in relationships, don't have to have sex if they don't want to, and can do anything boys can do.

Re uniform, they just point to the rules and say to boys AND girls, "these are the rules, follow them".

*I don't get this at all. On one part of MN you've got people saying that we shouldn't have page 3 and lads mags like FHM and Nuts should cover their covers if girls are on the front in their knickers because woman are better than that and the feminists have fought for us to be seen as equals, and it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Then on the otherhand it is ok for 15 year old school girls to hitch their skirts up so far that it makes male teachers feel uncomfortable, and if they do feel uncomfortable then it's tough shit! confused*

There's no discrepancy here.

Half-dressed, pouting women on the cover of FHM/Nuts = women exist to be sexually available for straight men and can only be seen in that light

Upset over male teachers being sexually tormented by short skirts = women exist to be sexually available for straight men and can only be seen in that light.

"*I don't get this at all. On one part of MN you've got people saying that we shouldn't have page 3 and lads mags like FHM and Nuts should cover their covers if girls are on the front in their knickers because woman are better than that and the feminists have fought for us to be seen as equals, and it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Then on the otherhand it is ok for 15 year old school girls to hitch their skirts up so far that it makes male teachers feel uncomfortable, and if they do feel uncomfortable then it's tough shit! confused*"

the way I see it - page three is objectifying women. Reducing women to just tits and arse.

The situation with the school children is that it is sending a message out to all the pupils that girls and woman have to keep themselves modest because men just can't help their reactions.

they are two different things. Also you are comparing a person choosing to wear a particular type of clothing to a naked woman?

I am sure someone will be able to explain it better than me but can you not see the issue here? really?

I suppose my point is that while page 3 etc is obviously and openly reducing women to just tits and arse, the message from the school is similar.

They are basically saying "Women/girls are hotbeds of sexual alluringness that function by titillating men". The difference is of course that they're saying they don't want this to happen, but in order to stop it the girls must repress it in themselves, because it's their fault.

This was not said in the best way - however, yes, it is unfair on teachers (both male and female) - they could be embarrased or not know where to look.

Generally having skirts too short/underwear on display is inappropriate in a school environment

"It is fair to say that maybe the male teachers feel awkward / embarassed walking up the stairs behind 15 year old girls showing off their underware due to their short skirts.
Or that maybe in drama lessons similar issues may apply when acting. "

Then the issue is one of modesty generally. If it is culturally beyond the pale to walk upstairs flashing your fanny at male teachers then it is equally unacceptable to give the same view to female teachers, friends, non-friends, everyone! It shouldn't have been linked specifically to male teachers.

It also applies to boys who show their backsides with their pants round their thighs. Though admittedly this is more common when they are wearing their jeans rather than school uniform.

Also, I think it was bad to talk to the girls in any context of a potential sexual response between teachers and children. It is in effect telling them that there is a sexual dynamic in the relationship between pupil and teacher. This could make some girls very uncomfortable - and possibly be a tinderbox of bad opportunity for others. (I went to a girls school - many girls did deliberately try and offer sexual distraction to male teachers during class, just trying it out, really, trying to make them blush, or working up crushes on them).

The talk should have kept to observing school rules in keeping the Uniform smart looking, and observing general rules of modesty and good manners to all.

I went to a school where the (female) head had a quite open policy of only employing men if they were middle-aged, beardy, and unattractive, and they had to keep their jackets on at all times.

Clearly her view was that young, firm male flesh was far too alluring to be exposed to her rampant young gels.