State grammar schools compared with independent schools

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

What are the most significant differences?

I am reading the Good Schools Guide and it is generally gushing about grammar schools and implies that you can get a £13k/year education for free. However I would have thought that class sizes would be larger at grammar schools, maybe other differences too.

I went to a state comp, there were 30 in my class, although I think that was partly because we were 'subsidising' the lower sets to have about 12 in the class.

DS is Y6 at prep school and can continue to Y8, around 15 in his class. We are concerned that he is probably quite vulnerable to bullying etc., although he hasn't that issue because the children at his prep school are all vair nice. Am a bit suspicious of state schools on this front, but that might not be fair.

It might all be irrelevant as we are in Surrey and no grammars here, but we are looking to move anyway was curious before committing to spend £100k on DS' secondary education (and then potentially the same again for DD).

Like what? Diplomat? Translator?

Actually he does French and Latin at the moment and I don't think he finds it too bad, though he is in set 2, though if there were more than 2 sets he would perhaps not be at the bottom.

I have an A at GCSE in German but can't really speak any German at all. My French is a little better however.

I was slightly surprised, but we will try and get a handle on the other boys there and whether it's the right environment for him (we are going to a more traditional private school on Saturday, a selective one, albeit not hugely selective, and one that is 2/3 boarders, which I'm not keen on), and if it is then that's fine.

He's clearly not going to lose interest in Maths, Science, computers, etc.

HappyGardener: Like Seeker I am not hostile to any sector per se, nor hostile about precise criticism of named state schools. Or convinced by generalisations about the benefits of unspecified schools just because they are independent.

I am made cross by threads which assume that state education per se, and especially it's pupils, are to be regarded with suspicion, while the same generalising assumes that all independent education is marvellous and its students are naice..

I WENT to a private school. I fully support and agree with the reasons some of my v good friends have chosen fab schools which happen to be independent.

Unfortunately I find many threads on MN which do raise my hackles. As the mother of a wolf. That is what I respond to.

None of us will get anywhere making generalisations, spouting stuff which is based on rumour and prejudice.

A school that doesn't offer languages?
I'm not up to speed with this yet, but would that mean they can't get the E Bacc?
It's a big opportunity / option to remove from the curriculum.

If your son is bright I personally would be very wary of sending him to More House as they really don't tend to come out with the number of GCsEs that bright ASD kids do from mainstream schools (I considered it for my dyslexic son, but it was too expensive, too hard to get to, and he seemed unlikely to get as many GCSEs there as in main stream state).

Thank you mummytime, yes, I am quite wary.

According to the prospectus they do

English (Language and Literature - not sure if this means one or two)
2 or 3 * science
Maths
3 from a long list of soft subjects plus Geography and History

However in terms of ASD I am much more concerned that he develops better social skills, etc., as this is vital for life, whereas having 8 GCSEs instead of 11 isn't really going to affect anybody. I don't think anyone has ever asked me about mine.

It says in the handbook www.morehouseschool.co.uk/student-handbook-2011-12.pdf "More House School is a specialist school for boys who find learning hard", which I wouldn't necessarily say applies to my DS. He is no way struggling at his entirely mainstream almost-no-SEN-support prep school.

I guess for parents of boys who are struggling with work it would be a much easier decision.

Anyway, will get a better idea next week.

Many degree and other courses like a GCSE in a MFL.

Not even having the option of doing one is a potential door closer. Particularly if the emphasis on the EBacc continues.

OP, would it help to ask for suggestions for a school that would suit a child with ASD? You need help from parents with specific knowledge and experience.

OP what ever school you ask about whether it will be state or independent someone will tell you its the best school in the world and someone else will cheerfully regale you with a horror story.
If you like More House and think its right for your DS that all that matters. Go and look at it ask relevant questions and its always worth comparing it with others even those you don't like the look of. Being able to pay opens up a broad choice but choice is not necessarily freedom.

My goodness the luxury of being able to choose between a grammar and a private school.

I need to not read threads like this.

My goodness the luxury of being able to choose between a grammar and a private school.
I need to not read threads like this.
As Ive said "Many pro state are pretty hostile" I rest my case.

OP, is your DS actually struggling or SEN at all? He just sounds like a normal, quiet, 10 year-old - not all 10-year-old boys are loud and fighty, plenty of sensitive ones out there. He sounds like he'd cope fine at any mainstream school,private or state,unless I'm missing something here. Why does he need to go to a school for 'nerdy' types per se?

It would be a luxury, in school choice terms, having that choice!

And Shagmund doesn't say who she is bitter and angry with - herself, the state, her local education authority OR people who have more choices.....

I agree with breadandbutterfly I'm sure More House is very good but it would appear to cater for those with genuine and quite serious difficulties. Has you son been assessed by an ed psych do you have a formal diagnosis? As she says many boys are sensitive and quiet if your were thinking of a grammar as your opening thread states he must be doing well at school keeping up etc. There are children in mainstream ed both state and independent with various learning needs including ASD and these schools not only provide a broad curriculum they help a child develop good social skills. I know of a few in independent ed with ASD they are at boarding schools both prep and senior in these schools the curriculum is very broad with lots of extra curricular activities to suit all tastes and of course if you choose the right school lots of opportunities to develop good social skills in a structured and a caring environment. Oh and they are allowed to retrieve a frisbee as well.

He has an ASD diagnosis, it's not something you would say 'oh that boy is disabled', although people with ASD familiarity might probably notice.

He copes, but he has issues e.g. with organisation, social skills at play time, etc. Also nuance/empathy affect his essay writing (very poor structure), and English comprehension. He also sometimes misinterprets questions, when the wording is less than straightforward, e.g., he had to work out the code for particular words, and then when the next question gave codes for words, and asked him to say what the word was, he just coded the code again, which is something that a non-ASD child would notice - firstly the fact that the question was not giving a real word like FISH but instead QJKL, which should have been a red flag, and secondly that the wording had different meaning from the previous questions.

I am sure he could get through any normal school, but I want him to be as happy and well-adjusted as possible and if that means 'a special school' then so be it.

Look at both but remember that many independent schools are clever marketing machines and especially those struggling to fill their vacancies will tell you anything to get you in the door.
Shiplake is worth considering, Bloxham maybe and as I've already said St Edwards although they St E's is not struggling to fill its vacancies.

Well we went along to King Edwards, Witley Open Morning today.

Nice part of rural Surrey while still close to A3, and train station about 5 minutes walk away.

Quite a few of the senior students had strong foreign accents, I think I read one third overall are foreign.

We are shown round by two Y8 British Pakistani/Bangladeshi boys from state primary schools. (Didn't think it appropriate to ask them who was paying, they didn't give the impression of being from monied families.)

Asked one of them which subjects he was good at and he said he wasn't really good at subjects, but he liked the cooking class.

Eavesdropped on a conversation between a parent and a teacher about Cranleigh (not far away from there). He said you could see the difference between the King Edwards and Cranleigh pupils - and their parents. I think I knew what he meant - I guess there would be far more Audi Q7s and Range Rover Vogue and general over-confidence at Cranleigh. The children we saw didn't seem to be swaggering public school types, on the whole.

We asked the HT about ASD, and he said they supported a boy who perhaps couldn't cope with a larger school without full-time support (not quite sure the words he used), and he had a check list of his things every night and they had someone to check it each night, and after going through this for a couple of years he had got it sorted out. Generally gave supportive vibes, small school so easier to get on with than a larger one would be, etc.

Not pushy, but not academic enough???

Lots of sort of arty stuff - art block, D+T, sewing + cooking facilities.

I have known quite a few children go through King Edwards, my son quite liked the teachers who are good at talking to 11 year olds, which not all teachers are in our experience. However they used to do Saturday school, which put him off.

If your son is very bright you could consider RGS, which I know has had several ASD boys through (and even has a senior teacher whose son with ASD went through the school). Reeds might also be worth looking at.
My son is at a large high performing state school, and has several friends with ASD who are pretty well integrated (if seen as a little odd). Advantage of a bigger school is that there is more chance of finding someone you get on with.

We've friends with DC's at Cranleigh all our very happy. It's fairly selective but not impossible to get into but what might be of more relevance to you OP all who have gone there were definitely the top at sport in particular crickets at my DS's prep.
The ones we know are not the super rich/flashing their money around in fact far from. My DS prep has a reputation for having a very high % of exceedingly wealthy but Cranleigh was not on any of their short lists.
Lots on MN rave about a quaker school in Surrey ?Leighton Park don't know anything about it but it's frequently recommended for SEN children.

Skippy, you would question how a child at private school pays the fees? Not all places at private school are reserved for prep school attending white kids. I think you need to look about a bit more. I'm v'pro state but in defense of privates, they only care if you can pay and in the case of the high achieving if you are clever enough. They do not select on backgrounds though the 10k a year you need is a selection in itself.

"We are shown round by two Y8 British Pakistani/Bangladeshi boys from state primary schools. (Didn't think it appropriate to ask them who was paying, they didn't give the impression of being from monied families.) "

Did you ask them about their ethnic background- or did you just guess! Oh, and how can you tell if a 12 year old boy in school uniform is from a monied background?

Did they smell working class, maybe?

"Skippy, you would question how a child at private school pays the fees?"

Well, no, as I said. But if the school is giving out a lot of bursaries then that's something I need to investigate because the fees ain't cheap.

"I'm v'pro state but in defense of privates, they only care if you can pay"

I'm not convinced that that's a defence of privates. Try a bit harder.

"Did you ask them about their ethnic background- or did you just guess! "

No I didn't explicitly ask them. That was my assessment based on appearance, names, religion stated (Muslim), etc.

I looked at a good few schools last year and was shown around by pupils. I don't think any stated their religion.

I still think this is whole thread is a windup but OK let's give the OP the benefit of the doubt!
"didn't think it appropriate to ask them who was paying"
Not only inappropriate but non of your business!
This is going to be a bit of a generalisation but like all generalisation contains a significant degree of truth. Many Asian families know that it's education that literally keeps you out of the gutter and therefore place a greater emphasis on the importance of education. We used to know this 80-90 years ago but sadly many white UK families both middle class and working class have forgotten this. Asian families will make significant sacrifices that others wouldn't consider to ensure their children have the best education they can afford.

Well he asked us as we toured the chapel (twice weekly visits I believe), so I asked them.