State grammar schools compared with independent schools

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

What are the most significant differences?

I am reading the Good Schools Guide and it is generally gushing about grammar schools and implies that you can get a £13k/year education for free. However I would have thought that class sizes would be larger at grammar schools, maybe other differences too.

I went to a state comp, there were 30 in my class, although I think that was partly because we were 'subsidising' the lower sets to have about 12 in the class.

DS is Y6 at prep school and can continue to Y8, around 15 in his class. We are concerned that he is probably quite vulnerable to bullying etc., although he hasn't that issue because the children at his prep school are all vair nice. Am a bit suspicious of state schools on this front, but that might not be fair.

It might all be irrelevant as we are in Surrey and no grammars here, but we are looking to move anyway was curious before committing to spend £100k on DS' secondary education (and then potentially the same again for DD).

Have you actually looked at your local state comps? This is the term of open evenings and day time visits. You may already be in the catchment for an excellent state comp or two!

No one is offended. On any subject, no-one minds questions - but generalisations that refer to the schools and children of many of the people you are asking might just provoke a challenge.

Skippy, by your own admission, your DS probably wouldnt get into GS. The thing is that the same will apply for selective independant as well. You cant simply rock up to a selective school, say 'here's a big fat cheque, now let my DS in'.

Your DS is good at some things, not good at others. Surely you would be better off looking at the atmosphere of the school rather than setting your DS up to fail by flogging him though entrance exams?

You are describing your DS as still being a little boy. He wont be in a couple of years. You are looking for the school which will see him through to being 16 or 18. By this point he will probably have seemingly doubled in height while at the same time his voice will have dropped through the floor (I have a 14 year old so have seen this happen).

There are independent schools that are effectively non selective (and have smaller class sizes and a greater emphasis on all round education (big on sports and arts.) One of those sounds like it might be a good fit for what you want for your DS.

FWIW I would always choose a state grammar over a private school if we had them around here. To get an academically selective senior school here you have to pay for it. Class sizes at private academically selective schools are often the same as state grammars. I'd much prefer the mix of DC at a state grammar.

To be fair i'd have to say there isn't that much of a mix at grammar schools either.Usually the children from working class backgrounds , very quickly become 'middle class' or the ones who are more, shall we say 'rough round the edges' leave or are asked to leave.

I would agree Narked if OP is dead against a state comp no matter how good.

Well the head has just emailed us re coming into discuss secondary schools, so will do that this month. Have booked visit to More House. Apparently they don't do foreign languages, which is interesting. Good on the nerdy subjects though.

I thought More House was a girl's school. Must go and google!

No questions about state schools?

Ah, there are two! Sorry.

Still happy to answer questions about state schools.

There is a More House in London www.morehouse.org.uk/
and an unrelated school in Frensham (the one we are visiting) www.morehouseschool.com/
which is definitely not to be confused with Frensham Heights www.frenshamheights.org/frensham/ which is a 'liberal' school.

Yes- sorry. I only know about the girl's one.

I'm still genuinely curious about your intention in starting this thread. It does look as if you were only intending to have a go at state schools, which would be silly, so I'm sure that's not what you wanted. What did you want?

I thought I explained in my OP, I was asking about the differences in atmosphere, etc.

OP you unwittingly stumbled into a MN long running often acrimonious debate state versus indepednent. Many pro state are pretty hostile to any critisms of wonderful state ed.
I believe I answered you question this is only my experience and Im sure others will dispute this but it is a valid view as unlike many I have children in both sectors.

One other point
"Class sizes at private academically selective schools are often the same as state grammars"
If this matters to you and I think the jury is out on how imortant it is ask at any schools you look at. At my DS's school no class is bigger than 18 and some are smaller but then that reflects in the size of the fees!

I don't think that I would want mine at a school where they won't retrieve a frisbee in case they get scratched!

Not in year 6 anyway!

Presumably they are happy for someone else to get scratched to get it out- or do they live in a world where you just buy a replacement?!

I'm happy to criticise any sector. However hackles do tend to go up when using the state sector is described as throwing a child to the wolves! Some of us on here are the parents of those wolves, you know!

I honestly think that you can't generalise about any sector. My dd's very traditional old fashioned grammar school is very different from her cousin's forward thinking dynamic one. My ds's high school is very different from the one in the next town. And my godson's pushy pressure cooker of a prep school with stellar results and a bullying culture that makes my bold boil is very different from the fantastic, nurturing, joyful, happy one with equally stellar results whose pupils go blackberry picking in the field up the road from me.

Independents generally have much more money and therefore better facilities. And because they are all selective- either academically or financially- they have generally rich and an higher % of more engaged parents than no selectives.

You are right seeker no one should generalise about any sector even the the weird like Steiner! People have incorrect views of both prejudice is not just confined to those in the independent sector.

Ah. I might make an exception for Steiner!

my DD goes to a state primary where there are 3 classes with 12,14,and 15 pupils respectively.So class size argument doesn't always hold up

catwoo I dont think anyone is denying that small classes exist in the state sector at primary level.
Seeker I know of some children who've even managed to emerge from Perry Court the weirdest of all the Steiner schools surprisingly normal and have gone off to the Kent Grammars for A levels and and done very well. OK only a few but it can happen!

Skippy I would be wary of any school, state or private, that does not offer languages.

I agree, Sue.

You are likely to get smaller classes in independents- it's a money thing. But small classes aren't necessarily the holy grail many people think they are.

Why is that sue?

It's a school for children who have language-related problems, ASD, dyslexia, etc.

I guess they have decided it's better not to try and force children already struggling with English to do French as well.

The learning support staff seems to be almost as large as the teaching staff: seven literacy tutors, eight speech & language therapists, three occupational therapists, plus a head and deputy head of department, which is quite a lot I think for 380 students, although apparently every boy has his own individual timetable which includes learning support time, so obviously they are all needed.

There's a brief mention here in the context of an autistic boy:

www.treatingautism.co.uk/parents-stories/309/a-journey-back-to-happiness/

" When we had our tour, we both knew it was the 'right' school for Alex. Small class sizes, lessons delivered so that they were accessible, and up to four hours of individual SLT, OT and literacy tuition each week. More importantly, the boys there were so similar to Alex, we knew he would integrate socially. He went for an assessment day and loved it. Luckily, he was offered a place."

The author of this blog is a parent there:

specialneedsjungle.com/2009/07/05/morehouseaschooltobeproudof/

Apparently she started off paying the fees but the place is now funded by the LEA (statemented), although from what I gather most (2/3) parents pay their own way.

In would be wary because it doesn't allow for children to change and develop. And lots of career paths are made more difficult at least, if not closed off without at least a C in GCSE in a modern foreign language.