State grammar schools compared with independent schools

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

What are the most significant differences?

I am reading the Good Schools Guide and it is generally gushing about grammar schools and implies that you can get a £13k/year education for free. However I would have thought that class sizes would be larger at grammar schools, maybe other differences too.

I went to a state comp, there were 30 in my class, although I think that was partly because we were 'subsidising' the lower sets to have about 12 in the class.

DS is Y6 at prep school and can continue to Y8, around 15 in his class. We are concerned that he is probably quite vulnerable to bullying etc., although he hasn't that issue because the children at his prep school are all vair nice. Am a bit suspicious of state schools on this front, but that might not be fair.

It might all be irrelevant as we are in Surrey and no grammars here, but we are looking to move anyway was curious before committing to spend £100k on DS' secondary education (and then potentially the same again for DD).

Thanks for the snide comments guys. Very helpful.

skippy, mine was meant to be gentle teasing, not snide

"OP I think you have a strange perception of state schools. You say you think it's sheltered because the children never go anywhere alone.Do you think state primaries do?"

Dunno, we were staying with friends in Thanet, their DS is going Faversham Grammar (wasn't then), and he was forever coming and going places on his own. Was a bit tbh.

I understand that every parent wants to find a school that is as agood a fit as possible for their child, and in that, I wish you luck.

But sorry, this is exactly the sort of state / private thread that makes my blood boil.

My DS has just turned 11. He is tiny for his age, he walks with a limp, and he has just started a S London state comp. He is indeed quite streetwise . He is also kind and caring. He helped a boy whose name he did not yet know to re-tie his tie so he would not get a yellow card. He is kind to the girl who is too scared to speak to anyone. And he has also been rescued by another girl - of a demography frequently cited as a factor to worry about - who slipped him her spare reading book when he found that he did not have a reading book in his bag when they were instructed to pull out their reading books. This is a Lambeth state comp. They are not wolves.

I do feel for you, wanting to find a school which will support a child with ASD. You might do best by looking at individual schools for what they are and not for what sector they fall into. State comps often have excellent inclusion departments precisely because they cater for all comers. For example the inclusion dept called me unexpectedly after DS's first day to check that he was happy and felt safe and secure re his leg, and to let him and me know who to talk to if we had the slightest worry. They have put systems in place to ensure he can enjoy school on the same terms as everyone else. Look for a school that has a good record for inclusive practice, has specialist SEN teachers. A school with a good pastoral care structure and a committment to that. A school that will support all students to achieve to the best of their own academic potential - whether that be high or average, across a range of subjects.

Sorry you unwittingly walked into a tinderbox.

If your need is for a small, sheltered, nurturing environment then grammar is not going to compare with private. Grammar will be full of bright and very competitive children - Heaven help the child that comes in the bottom quartile at all subjects....(which should be a lesson for those parents that tutor borderline pupils to within an inch of their lives).

Bullying happens in any school. I think the bullying done by naice children can be even more damaging than that done by those that you term streetwise. Private kids are just better at keeping it under the radar because they will be expelled if they are overt in their cruelty. I imagine that's one of the reasons why there are often lots of eating disorders and the like in private. Take a look at Question Time in the commons and ask yourself where they all learnt to be so withering....

You have probably missed the boat anyway for 11+ tests, so might want to look at state boarding options instead - Cranbrook is indeed a fab school, though very competitive to get into.

Or, if your child is happy, simply leave it as is.

Yes I was reading the GSG earlier and it seems there are a few inner London comps with ruthless discipline etc. that get good results. This did come with the caveat however of 'fifteen applications per place', or 'must live within 0.3 miles of the school gate' or other such nonsense.

Great post, Blu :)

OMG there are school with 300 in a school year!!!

How could I not know this? after reading MNeducation threads for years

I thought 150 was big!

What is average?

How are those numbers remotely managable?

OP Im going to answer your original question?
What are the most significant differences between a grammar school and an independent?
My DS was offered a place at a top performing independent and one of the countries top performing grammars always in the top 10 usually the top five although the results of the former are better. There were lots of factors we had to take into consideration before making our choice and we were heavily influenced by the fact that the grammar school was 40+ miles up the road and that was after I had driven 10 miles to meet the school bus. But on the other hand it was a free education. Like your DS my DS was at a prep school he although not exactly the most streetwise in a lot of ways is exceedingly independent and I wasn't worried about his ability to mix with children from all backgrounds and certainly don't believe bullying is more prevalent in the sate sector. I didn't like the atmosphere at the grammar IMO the staff were smug as they knew that they were a top performing school and they sort gave me the impression they were doing me a favour taking my DS, they made me feel uncomfortable. The facilities at the independent are obviously better as are the range and type of opportunities and most importantly I like the staff they talk to me as if Im an equal in a language I understand not some jargon filled load of gobbledegook. I felt the grammar was obsessed about its league table position/results as were the other parents and that it was basically an exam factory but the independent although these things are important the education was significantly broader and there were many many more cultural and most importantly for us intellectual activities that were not exam related on offer. In short the independent school provided a proper all round education. I accept that Im not comparing like with like as the independent is full boarding but we had looked at and had experience of top performing independent day schools and they provided a more balanced education as well.

OP children from prep schools often do appear to have lead a very sheltered life but once at senior school they quickly adapt so I wouldn't be too precious concerned if I was you just find a school that you both like and if your positive your DS will be also.

ha! The grammars also have huge numbers of applications per place, but it's much harder to predict whether you would get in because it comes down to who scored 1% more within the hundreds who pass..

Skippy - abandon the GSG, which is frequently out of date and innaccurate, and have a look at the Dept of Education website which gives lots of details about each school - and then look at the ofsteds. And ask around for schools that would suit your child.

Maybe start a thread which says 'nurturing school to suit bright but vulnerable child - recommendations in any sector in the SE please!' and take the discussion away from the grammar / independent theme.

Bu most of the top performing independent schools are also very over subscribed I believe St Pauls has 9 applicants for every one place and a ridiculously early registration date, Eton 6 for every one (read the numerous posting on MN about the difficulties of actually getting a offered a place) Harrow 8 for every one (ditto MN advise) so its not just grammar schools that are over subscribed.

If you are in Surrey then all the good state schools (in fact most state schools ) are oversubscribed - you will have to make sure that you are in the right catchment area - although saying that you have to applied by end of October .

LOTS of schools have 300 in a year.
Eton has nearly 200 FFS

And if you do not live in a grammar area its an ENTIRELY irrelevant thread

OP am assuming you've asked your head for advise on where to send your DS? As a general principle heads are usually pretty good at coming up with suitable schools and are not afraid to suggest the state sector if they think your leaning that way.

"Dunno, we were staying with friends in Thanet, their DS is going Faversham Grammar (wasn't then), and he was forever coming and going places on his own. Was a bit tbh."

What do you mean? I really am puzzled- are you saying that secondary age children shouldn't go places on their own? Or that they shouldn't get the bus from Thanet to Faversham on their own? That is quite normal behaviour for secondary school kids- honestly.

Everyone is different we put a 10 yr old on his own on a mainline train (150 mile journey) and people stopped him and asked him what he was doing, where were his parents? We've friends who wouldn't let a 12 yr old walk 20 yards to a shop in his own.

My DS friends who have gone off to independent school all catch a bus to their various schools at about 7.30am after having made their own way to the bus stop !

My DS goes to local secondary and leaves at 8.15am on his bike on his own straight to school - quite like that.

There's a few grammar schools here that perform average/same as the other secondary schools. Also i went to a catholic school which had smaller class sizes than my other halfs grammar school, i was quite shocked that his class sizes were all 30+ though that said school is no longer a grammar school. I just always read all about local schools regardless of whether they are a grammar school etc etc.

I don't know of any grammar schools which actually have the same academic results as non selective schools- do they exist?

And small class sizes are not the holy grail- it's what's done with the class that's important.

seeker, how is ds doing?

"OP am assuming you've asked your head for advise on where to send your DS? As a general principle heads are usually pretty good at coming up with suitable schools and are not afraid to suggest the state sector if they think your leaning that way."

The head is not going to encourage kids to leave after Y6, otherwise he wouldn't have a Y7 or Y8 any more, would he?

"What do you mean? I really am puzzled- are you saying that secondary age children shouldn't go places on their own?"

Well he had just finished Y6, so not yet secondary age, and I'm sure it's normal, but not at my son's prep school.

"And if you do not live in a grammar area its an ENTIRELY irrelevant thread"

I think we have access to the Sutton and Kingston grammars, despite being 15 miles away or so.

But unlikely to happen really.

OP our prep went up to yr 8 but a handful left at yr 6. Obviously in the ideal world the school wanted them to stay till the bitter end but if people were determined to go at the end of yr 6 for whatever reason (it was in a country with grammar schools) then as the head couldn't actually stop them he advised them on suitable options provided refs and even liaised with potential schools. IME most heads are realists especially if your considering state ed. because you don't want to pay the fees anymore.