Scottish education needs to change, right now.

[Easypeelersareterrible]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/scotsnet/5217850-scottish-teachers-can-i-do-anything-apart-from-go-off-sick

I’ve just read the above thread and it’s just so shocking. I’m not a teacher and therefore don’t want to derail the thread, but everyone in this situation is being catastrophically failed. The teacher, who can take no more, feels she’s been put in an impossible situation and has no choice but to leave. The child with SEN who sounds utterly distraught in mainstream schooling. The other pupils in the class who are only P1 and have to try to learn in an incredibly distressing situation. Imagine being only P1 and this being your only experience of school!

We need to open more special schools and pupil referral units. Mainstream schooling needs to be for those who want to learn and are capable of learning. By putting children with unmet SEN or disruptive pupils into mainstream schooling we are not meeting their need while at the same time destroying the education and mental health of those willing and able to learn. ‘Inclusion at all costs’ is failing Scotland.

Why can’t politicians see this, and take the decision that desperately need to be taken?

My experience is having a child in nursery, and then primary, with SEN children.

IMO high needs SEN children NEED better care in education for themselves and that of their teachers and school mates.

My child has been hit, had things thrown at them, pushed, hair pulled etc etc because of these SEN children, and now in primary 3 their education is suffering as the teacher spends most of her time focused on the SEN child's behaviour and/or fixing then situation.

Lots of the children will now not play or interact with the SEN child. It was different with the child in nursery as the children were younger, more prone to forget and had the ability more to walk away but that is not the case when you are in a smallish room most of the day. I feel really bad for the child who is obviously struggling and honestly being marked as "bad" but at the same time I understand the other children's hesitation to engage with him.

The teacher my child has is in her first year teaching and I feel is very ill equipped or experienced to deal with the situation. There is no support from what I see. The SEN child is just expected to be included in everything and, being honest, that's not always possible without help. For example at drop off time the children are all asked to line up etc and this boy can be seen running around, not understanding requests of bag on and line up. He can be on the other side of the playground, climbing/hiding/running etc, and the teacher is faced with leaving her pupils to go chase him almost daily which results in the class going in late and/or some pupils getting disengaged and misbehaving themselves.

Its not fair to anyone involved and as a parent it's very frustrating so I can only imagine how the teacher feels especially as she, I know, also has the other parents complaining about situation and how it's effecting their children.

I truely believe SEN children should be included as much as possible and I encourage my child to play/include/engage and help them at school as much as possible, but there is only so much you can do.

Sometimes the situation calls for additional help but in this day and age giving, or getting, that help seems to go against the "rights" of the child as its seen as not including them or making them different.

IMO not doing something is making them different and go without rights but I've never had a SEN child so I don't know how I'd feel if the situation was reversed...I could feel like my child needs the "norm" to be included but I'd like to think I'd be more concerned about getting them the support they need.

This teacher in the original thread is at breaking point and I fully understand why - her job is not to provide the level of care this child so needs especially on top of looking after her class, it's almost asking her to do two jobs that are impossible to do alongside each other.

I 100% agree that the education needs to change - there needs to be some sort of assessment (wrong term maybe) that determines if these child can cope with mainstream schooling.

All parties involved deserve better.

I removed my DS from state school because of this. He's not SEN but was one of the children being impacted as the teacher had no time for him or the other more diligent kids. Most of them were being used to calm the other children. In my DS's 5 years at his school he was always sat next to a disruptive child as a 'calming influence' and he became a very anxious child. Within days at his new school he was noticeably happier.
DD still at state school and seems to cope with disruption better but in her class of 30 she still has children who are violent and disruptive. I'll move her to private for secondary as she is happy where she is. This is a 'good school' in an affluent area as well. I dread to think what is happening in other schools.

Terrifying experience here with a ‘good’ state school.

As a parent of a secondary child with SEN, I’m actively trying to get them out of mainstream and it’s fucking impossible. Current school is sort of trying but stymied by lack of council support and I feel they are in breach of their duty of care as an employer given the paucity of the support measures in place. Getting information on next steps is almost impossible, like it’s designed to be as hard as possible to find out details.

I only recently found out the enhanced provision existed as a halfway between mainstream and special school. But I can’t speak to anyone who runs it, let alone visit, and I just get referred to the same website front pages and broken links! The process for applying is obscured probably deliberately and seems to happen rarely. And I’m lucky I’m intelligent, professional, have a supportive spouse and English as a first language. It’s all fucked.

Not read the article but standard schools are increasingly pressurised environments and don’t suit everyone. A lot of ND kids end up home-schooling not through choice. I’m sure there should be the option for a more flexible or part time school where maths, English, science is covered, along with more practical art, technology, craft. Kids only need 6 GCSEs and rich school experience rather then pressurised 10 11 12 GCSEs

What are the teaching unions doing to protect their members?
I know they did a survey about frequency of assaults on teachers recently. But they surely need to be a lot more proactive, going into every school where teachers are putting themselves at risk every day and demanding the employer addresses this.

I think it's worth pointing on English-centric mumsnet, just before the thread goes too far, that the Scottish education system is different to England and whilst similar challenges exist in England, they are not the same. In Scotland, it is nigh on impossible to exclude. Just wanted to point that out before the thread is flooded with threads assuming the Scottish and English systems are one and the same. I know this is Scotsnet but it will appear on Active etc.

5 permanent exclusions in the whole of Scotland last year I think. This is one of the main issues. No meaningful consequences.

I correct myself, 1 permanent exclusion in 2022/23. And the Scottish government will pay themselves on the back for this no doubt.

In Scotland kids don't sit GCSEs.

I absolutely agree that changes need to be made but It isn’t just a Scottish problem. It seems to be an increasing problem in a number of countries. An Australian friend who is a teacher visited recently and was complaining about the exact same issues as were posters on the Australian Reddit. Likewise an American teacher friend. It’s all very worrying.

The problem in the other thread isn't bad behaviour, it is a chid who has additional needs which are greater than the resources available to the teacher. I agree though that when there is bad behaviour it can be very difficult to address due to the lack of consequences.

I do think it's an increasing problem everywhere - every time labour tweet that they're going to make mainstream work for SEN my heart sinks, they seem to be planning to ape Scottish SEN provision, why do we all think it's not working when labour is looking at Scottish Ed and seem to think it's a model they want to follow?

Is Scottish Ed cheaper than English education?

Yes this is defintley my experience.
I have experienced this at work in a schoo , not in the uk.l.There is just not enough money to invest in education.It's easier to just put all the children together, and tell the teaching staff to get on with it.

If you think it’s bad in Scotland it’ll blow your mind how shit it is in England!

I'd love to see some number crunching on govt spending - we've got a declining population of kids, so why is education funding always in crisis? Is education funding going up less than nhs funding over time?

I really do think it’s worse in Scotland. The violence in schools going through the roof here is a well known thing. Schools are totally powerless to act. A number of kids (esp care experienced children) are totally untouchable.

Why is education so bad here? Scotland have embraced the ‘inclusion at all costs’ policy that has been instigated in other countries like Scandinavia. It is quite successful in Scandinavia as they throw masses of resources at proper integration of violent children. It’s expensive to do here. Scotland don’t bother with adequate funding and so it doesn’t work as all. Inclusion is supposed to make violent kids less violent as they feel they have a stake in the community and therefore are less prone to offend as adults. This is why exclusion is banned. It’s all crappy research theories. Teachers aren’t asked about what they think works. They are being forced to use Paul Dix theories on how to calm and engage bored and aggressive pupils. It doesn’t work at all and the blame for that is put on the staff.

The lack of SEN provision is scandalous. And exhausted, stressed parents have to jump through endless hoops to access the paltry services out there.

CAMHS has utterly imploded in Scotland too. Things are going to get no better until things are actually addressed. But they are not being. It’s a shit show.

I don’t know if it is worse in Scotland. It may be but again everything that you’re complaining about is exactly what my teacher friends elsewhere, Australia, England and America complain of e.g violence in the classroom, constant disruptive behaviour, lack of funding, inclusion at all costs etc. It’d be interesting to see a global approach to this as at least several countries seem to be experiencing the exact same issues.

But @Greenbeanmcgee, @52crumblesofautumn your answer doesn’t fit with the OP’s narrative. It’s the Scottish Government’s fault and that’s the end of it 😂.

Actually taking a broad view of the topic wouldn’t fit.

It's desperately needed though isn't it? On so many issues the challenges facing the globally rich countries are similar - not saying that there aren't specific factors where a particular country could have some relatively worse policies but the data is so hard to find on this...

Our LA will do very little to support teaching staff and head teachers in cases like these. Virtually no exclusions unless "a weapon is involved". Well a fist, a pencil, a chair etc etc could all be classed as a weapon if used as such.

We had a P5 boy who was terrorising children in his class. Children couldn't get on with their work and the teacher was constantly evacuating the class to the library for their safety.
It wasn't until a parent contacted the LA and said she was going to the press and the police if nothing was done, that anything happened.

Exactly. In my experience the head teacher, education department, local authority etc are all stuck in the mindset that although the child may be violently threatening all and sundry on a daily basis, inclusion is best and so the best thing is to keep him in mainstream. No thought to the needs of the victims at all.

It’s not until you go OUTSIDE the educationalists to the press, MPs, (some) MSPs and explain the situation and the MSP will acknowledge that what’s going on is INSANE and must be stopped.

It’s not just in Scotland OP but I love your passion. SEN across the UK in mainstream education needs to be made a priority.

Nobody seems to see that GIRFEC isn't working. If you're "getting it right" for one group of pupils, it's not right for others.

I'm retired now and wouldn't go back for any amount of money.

You can’t get it right for every child if it means the inclusion of violent children in mainstream schooling. The example in the thread that started my frustration was one where it was getting it very wrong for every child.