Scottish education needs to change, right now.

[Easypeelersareterrible]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/scotsnet/5217850-scottish-teachers-can-i-do-anything-apart-from-go-off-sick

I’ve just read the above thread and it’s just so shocking. I’m not a teacher and therefore don’t want to derail the thread, but everyone in this situation is being catastrophically failed. The teacher, who can take no more, feels she’s been put in an impossible situation and has no choice but to leave. The child with SEN who sounds utterly distraught in mainstream schooling. The other pupils in the class who are only P1 and have to try to learn in an incredibly distressing situation. Imagine being only P1 and this being your only experience of school!

We need to open more special schools and pupil referral units. Mainstream schooling needs to be for those who want to learn and are capable of learning. By putting children with unmet SEN or disruptive pupils into mainstream schooling we are not meeting their need while at the same time destroying the education and mental health of those willing and able to learn. ‘Inclusion at all costs’ is failing Scotland.

Why can’t politicians see this, and take the decision that desperately need to be taken?

We can get rid of the SNP in 18 months. But will we and would the alternative be any better?

THANK YOU! I could feel my blood pressure rising as I read through the thread...

My child with ASN had a horrendous passage through secondary school thanks to bullying; if he had acted out he would have been well within his rights to be honest, and I wonder if that would have led to the chorus of 'let's exclude the ASN kids' rather than 'let's actually deal with the bullying.' Similarly he was friends with a kid in primary school who would regularly have explosive rage, it became a bit of a sport amongst the other kids to wind him up and let him go, but it was always the kid's fault when things went south.

Inclusion isn't working, and I know that to be true. However, exclusion isn't the answer; the answer is properly funded alternative provisions for children and young people in a variety of settings that suit various needs, including the need for nurturing environments for academically capable kids. We could call them... special schools...

Specialist schools. NOT special schools.

The problem I think is that the pendulum has swung too far. When I was a kid (now 60) the slightest physical or metal disability marked a child out for a segregated education which must have been just awful for intellectually able children with disabilities. Now it seems even those who would greatly benefit from being removed from the mainstream are left to struggle there.

My experiences as a parent however are that decisions, could in the past be made too soon that children with SEN could not thrive in the mainstream. My DD now 28 was still non verbal at 4 and was diagnosed with ASD at that time. Her educational psychologist was adamant that the she could not cope with a mainstream education. However after getting her suitable speech therapy and me attending an autism awareness course for parents of pre school children, it was clear to me that with the right help and a bit more time, mainstream education was at least a possibility. I fought tooth and claw for her to be allowed an extra year at nursery to hone her fledgling language skills in a non pressurised environment. This meant she didn't start school until she was 5 years and 10 months but that extra year at nursery meant she was unrecognisable as the child she was a year earlier. In fact her behaviour when she went to school marked her out as a model pupil as she was so desperate to be praised. Initially there was a SEN assistant assigned to her class because of her diagnosis but with time it became clear that wasn't required.

DD went on to achieve top grades in all her 4th, 5th and 6th year high school exams and went on to study Biology at Edinburgh University and then did an associated Masters Degree. Had she not been allowed into the mainstream system, I think very little of that would have been possible as I saw the trajectory of at least 6 other children with ASD who were placed into SEN settings.

I suppose my point is that while it is obliviously wrong for whole classes to be constantly disrupted by pupils almost certainly destined to fail in a mainstream setting that I am wary of children being written off too soon. I think however there does have to come a point when it is acknowledged that for certain pupils the mainstream is failing both them and their classmates and some more suitable specialised provision found.

Or you could just say we need a diversity of school provision - this article is excellent about the challenges facing some children (and parents) despite the headline - I don't know much about this MP bit she understands the challenges:

www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/vat-private-schools-step-far

Yes I feel that's exactly the problem, you often need to re promises as a school works for 3-4 years and then needs change and the setting needs to change.

We need to get away from focusing on meeting all needs in one setting.

The problem came about many years ago. Schools were specialist schools for SEN children. But then the government and society started with the idea of being "inclusive". Now before you all have a go at me- inclusivity is great and needed, but not to the detriment of the individual and the majority of the kids in the classroom if they cannot cope/keep up with main stream school.

However, no one can fix it now as saying anything about the imbalance and unfairness results in being branded a bigot/discriminative/ableist and the vitriol they receive is awful.

I genuinely think SEN children can thrive in main stream, but it depends on the level of needs. I've known quite a few children with SEN to get into OXBRIDGE from main stream- (beats my achievement hands down!) but that was because it suited them.

A huge problem is people (government and local authorities included) thinking that all ASN/SEN kids need the same environment or treatment.

I can only speak for autistic kids as that's the only area I have experience in, but you will have kids who are a chatterbox, kids who are non speaking, extremely violent behaviour (when overwhelmed) as well as kids who freeze to the spot or cry silently, highly academic and intelligent kids with high IQ and other kids who struggle to match shapes. Some autistic kids drool and are incontinent, some are highly aware of hygiene issues. Obviously there's a huge amount of children inbetween too.

A lot (not all) of school staff don't seem to be able to grasp this. I've been told by a deputy head that he "didn't think this is autism as he's seen a lot of autism over the years". My child was diagnosed weeks later.

The same goes for all learning difficulties, ADHD, etc.

They cannot continue to think that just because all teachers have "training", that this will constitute a suitable environment. No consideration seems to be given to noise, crowds, lighting, visual clutter, trust and relationship building, processing speed, etc.

Cutting education to the bone is just going to amplify these problems.

I do think that a lot of ASN / SEN children would be fine in mainstream if the bullying / violence was dealt with - by removing violent bullies to a specialist provision. Why should high IQ autistic children miss out of all of the broad academic opportunities a mainstream school can offer just because a violent bully needs to be included. Inclusion for some is exclusion for others. Let’s not exclude the innocent.

Absolutely, the Scottish education system is massively flawed and is failing our children. These SEN children who need provision have nowhere to go, if they are somewhere between very slight SEN needs and severe SEN needs then they are forgotten about by the education system, there is no provision for them. They aren't severe enough to warrant a place in a special ed school so are left to fend for themselves in mainstream with no one to one support and it's so wrong.

Bad behaviour is through the roof. There's zero consequence so it continues.

My children attend the local primary in a nice area, lots move here to be able to access the primary and attachment secondary.

Bullying is rife in every class. Staff are all extremely gentle about it and tip toe around it. Racism has no punishment or acknowledgement. Have had the "n word" thrown around, it's truly shocking. Accessing adult videos in the playground. Teachers being sworn at whilst the child is standing on tables. Children being punched. In the local park during school hours. The language towards staff and other children is disgusting. I could go on all day. Staff do nothing.

At the secondary it's the same with racism and Bullying. Drug taking. Etc etc. Again, staff do nothing and have a very gentle approach.

This is Netherlee Primary School and Williamwood High School for anyone considering it. I recommend you don't. We can't afford to move and coming to the area for the school has been one biggest regrets we have as husband and wife. I wish we stayed put as friends haven't had similar complaints about the local primary school we were supposed to attend. We thought we were doing the right thing initially but this has been an eye opener that "posher" doesn't necessarily mean better.

If it's in Scotland the local authority runs the enhanced provision school. My oldest went to one and it was phenomenal. It bright him in so much.

I'm Scottish, but a primary teacher in England. Are there no EHCP's in place for children in mainstream, who struggle with behaviour or accessing the curriculum? Do 1:1s not exist?

EHCPs are not a thing here.

My DS had an EHCP in England and when we moved to Scotland I asked for it to be transferred. Was told "we don't have them" So I asked if it could be translated into the equivalent document - was told no.
Sent the EHCP to the council by email - claim they didn't receive it. Sent it by mail, was signed for, but no-one in ASN has it and they can't find it.
I actually gave up with them as they are either beyond hopeless or criminally corrupt.

Oh gosh @aesoplover I didn't realise they didn't exist at all. I mean, they're increasingly becoming like gold dust here, but at least they exist. Do children not have 1:1s in mainstream school at all then?

I don't know of any children with 1:1 support @Covidwoes but I suppose that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There was a big shift not long after DS19 started primary - in P1 he had a set allocation of hours 'attached' to him, by P2 it had become an allocation of hours attached to the classroom. So he didn't get four hours of support, four hours of support were added to the HT's budget to fund a classroom assistant.

@aesoplover how have you found his school experience in Scotland?

@HelloMyNameIsElderSmurf that is shocking! I genuinely didn't know it was that bad.

No EHCPs, councils make a point of never allocating 1:1s though for practical reasons (very high needs children in mainstream) head teachers may have to allocate their meagre allocation to a single pupil. Which means even fewer to support the rest of the school (in a high school of over 1000 there might be 10 PSAs to support all the children there). EHCPs may be costly/difficult to get in England and only 4.8% of children have them, but at least they do exist.

I think one pupil at my DC's school had to stay out of school for a full week after he assaulted pupils and staff recently. It's been happening regularly. I emailed school and put in a formal complaint.

The child needs specialist provision and shouldn't be in mainstream.

Jeez, @ThisLilacPombear I attended both those schools, a long long time ago of course, and can’t imagine that behaviour at the primary, and only slightly at secondary.

@Fundays12 yes, it is local authority, I’m bouncing between the school itself and the education department to get some answers to what it looks like. But this thread has me convinced we won’t get a place anyway. So much gatekeeping.

child’s plan and IEP and CSP are supposed to be the equivalent of EHCP here, but in our case it’s taken 18 months to get the child’s plan that was finalised at the end of primary revised by the secondary. So dread to think the hoops I need to get the other documents.

it is much harder to hold councils to account too. In practice you are limited to a disability discrimination claim but if found guilty the council just has to apologies - unlike England where they can be fined. The SPSO is also unable to issue fines for complaints upheld unlike the LGO in England.

It was almost impossible to get a temporary exclusion in my LA. The mantra was: "A child cannot learn if he's not in school."

The problem, of course, is that that the one child being in the wrong environment can disrupt the education of umpteen others.

child’s plan and IEP and CSP are supposed to be the equivalent of EHCP

Child’s plans and IEPs are not legal documents; there is no mechanism to require councils to provide the support laid out in them, or to dispute that support. CSPs are the closest but less than 0.2% have them. They require significant input from the NHS to get and the NHS in Scotland is in such a state (worse than England) that they rarely suggest, let alone agree, to any input.

The whole policy of inclusion is MASSIVELY flawed and fails both teachers and pupils. It's one of the many reasons I got out of teaching.

You would genuinely not believe some of the pupils I saw in mainstream education simply because it was what their parents wanted- it was heartbreaking. The children got nothing out of it but distress. However the parents were able to tell the neighbours their child went to a mainstream school! (One set of parents put their severely mentally and physically disabled child into our mainstream school for this reason - they openly admitted it).

Even the baroness who pushed for inclusion has admitted she was wrong: https://www.tes.com/magazine/archive/why-warnock-changed-her-view

However teachers are just expected to deal with it. Many struggle for a year on their absolute knees only to pass the issues on to the next teacher.