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Scottish teachers- can I do anything apart from go off sick?

66 replies

kotcheff · 25/11/2024 20:29

I am on my knees trying to manage my mainstream P1 class and one very, very high needs child. Keeping him safe seems nearly impossible and he shouts constantly.

Currently he goes home at lunch but his Mum wants him in all day. HT says he is facing pressure from above him to have all learners in full time and it's about his rights.

HT and Mum also want him in the Christmas show and party (afternoon) and trip to the pantomime (nearly full day). I feel like none of this is achievable and none of this is in his best interests. I actually feel physically sick at the thought of taking him out of the school.

I don't know where to go or who to ask for support. Would the EIS support me? HT made it clear that I am 'excluding' him and tbh I'm about to just get myself signed off sick.

OP posts:
TheHoneyMonster82 · 25/11/2024 20:31

Do you have any PSA support for him? (Or whatever they call support assistants in your authority)

kotcheff · 25/11/2024 20:36

Yes, 2 PSAs on a timetable.

OP posts:
Sometimeswinning · 25/11/2024 20:44

As kindly as possible you are excluding him. Why can’t he be in the Christmas show and party? Have you put together a risk assessment with the HT for taking him out for the day? It maybe that mum needs to come along and support him.

You need to try these things before you write him off. He may not enjoy these activities but you can’t just assume.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 25/11/2024 20:45

@Sometimeswinning what's more important, going to a party or the child and others being safe?

Sometimeswinning · 25/11/2024 20:51

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 25/11/2024 20:45

@Sometimeswinning what's more important, going to a party or the child and others being safe?

Why are they not safe? You don’t get to say that.

There are things which are glaringly obvious to me but I have to do them to show evidence. Prove I’m not just saying I don’t want this child there because it’s too much hard work for me.

Thats our job. Protect and include all the children. Not just the majority who are easy. If that was the job I’d be able to exclude at least 4 children daily from a lot of things. Pe, playtimes, lessons etc.

kotcheff · 25/11/2024 20:54

He won't sit still on the stage and tried to jump off, pulled the curtains and screamed repeatedly. He wouldn't tolerate a costume (won't wear school uniform or Halloween costume).

We tried to include him at the Halloween party and it was just a disaster.

I wouldn't mind him coming to the pantomime if Mum would come but tbh I can't rely on her coming.

He is being excluded but there is just no way.

OP posts:
Spagettifunctional · 25/11/2024 20:55

I would negotiate bringing him on the school tour when you get more support with you and the full day - well I think that has to be allowed doesn’t it. I used to teach special needs and some children in P1 had a reduced day but that was in full agreement with parents

would a member of his family go on the school tour with you ?

Peachtastic · 25/11/2024 20:56

Put it in the risk assessment that mum needs to attend for him to go to the panto. Completely reasonable request.

Spagettifunctional · 25/11/2024 20:57

Sorry I have seen that you answered that. Well if you feel you need to take sick then I would (I’ve been there)

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 25/11/2024 20:59

Sometimeswinning · 25/11/2024 20:51

Why are they not safe? You don’t get to say that.

There are things which are glaringly obvious to me but I have to do them to show evidence. Prove I’m not just saying I don’t want this child there because it’s too much hard work for me.

Thats our job. Protect and include all the children. Not just the majority who are easy. If that was the job I’d be able to exclude at least 4 children daily from a lot of things. Pe, playtimes, lessons etc.

It's in the OP Keeping him safe seems nearly impossible.

Manch2024 · 25/11/2024 20:59

Sounds very unsafe to take him out of school. He could easily run into traffic as an example. Contact eis. Make your fears very clear. What does the risk assessment say? Children are hurt in trips and it sounds like that's a real possibility here.

Sherrystrull · 25/11/2024 21:03

Op, honestly I'd be calling in sick on the day of the pantomime. Let the head take him.

There's not enough staff to keep him safe and the other children safe. If you have to run off to catch him, what happens to the rest of the class? What happens when a child wets themselves and staff are needed to change them.

Sadly this is why a lot of schools no longer do out of school trips. We can't keep all children safe with the ratios of staff so we just don't go.

Everyone loses out.

FoxRedPuppy · 25/11/2024 21:08

It does seem at the moment that you are trying to include him in activities without changing anything. Rather than removing the barriers that prevent him from taking part. Does he have to stand on the stage? Could he have a role that didn’t include that? Is he screaming because he’s disregulated. For many children the time of year in primary is much harder due to lack of routine etc. Can he spend extra time doing sensory circuits to help him regulate?

Can a member of staff attend the pantomime and just be there for him? Ultimately it is a bit like saying that you won’t take a child in a wheelchair because there isn’t access. You’d find a different venue.

Thats what needs to be done here. Not all by you obviously, by the Head, school etc.

If that support isn’t available and you aren’t coping then you can go sick. But the child is being discriminated against.

kotcheff · 25/11/2024 21:18

No, we are quite happy for him to stand or sit on stage as long as he's relatively in the one place. He is not able to do that and that's in an empty hall, never mind when 100+ parents are watching. He doesn't understand adult instructions so the idea of him having a role is just not possible. He's non verbal so screaming is his only way to communicate.

We have a sensory room, garden and circuits all in place.

We'd need at least two adults to take him to the pantomime without mum and that would leave us understaffed for the rest of the children.

The insistence on putting him in mainstream and us just magically coping is discriminating against him, quite honestly.

OP posts:
SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:28

I would include him at the start of the performance/party and remove him if/when he becomes disregulated.
Ask the head to complete the risk assessment for the pantomime, or do one yourself stating that he needs 2:1 staff to pupil or mum has to attend. Once it's in the risk assessment, that is what must happen. You might need to borrow staff from elsewhere for the trip.

If the head wants it to happen, the head needs to resource it safely.

Speak to your union for extra support

SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:30

My students are all non verbal, SLD and complex ASD. I still manage to involve most of them in assemblies, even if it's standing at the front holding an adults hand and the adult holds up some work they have done, or helps the child to hold something up to show people

Sherrystrull · 25/11/2024 21:30

SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:28

I would include him at the start of the performance/party and remove him if/when he becomes disregulated.
Ask the head to complete the risk assessment for the pantomime, or do one yourself stating that he needs 2:1 staff to pupil or mum has to attend. Once it's in the risk assessment, that is what must happen. You might need to borrow staff from elsewhere for the trip.

If the head wants it to happen, the head needs to resource it safely.

Speak to your union for extra support

I agree with all of this and it's what we've done. We've taken parents for similar children and borrowed staff from across the school to ensure safety.

Check with the office that all children are going on the trip as you might get an extra seat from a child who is ill or on holiday but has been counted in numbers.

If not. I've taken staff before who haven't had a seat but have sat in the foyer ready to help if needed. They brought a laptop to work while waiting.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 25/11/2024 21:34

SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:30

My students are all non verbal, SLD and complex ASD. I still manage to involve most of them in assemblies, even if it's standing at the front holding an adults hand and the adult holds up some work they have done, or helps the child to hold something up to show people

What's your child to staff ratio?

angryanderson88 · 25/11/2024 21:37

SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:30

My students are all non verbal, SLD and complex ASD. I still manage to involve most of them in assemblies, even if it's standing at the front holding an adults hand and the adult holds up some work they have done, or helps the child to hold something up to show people

If this is the case then you are in a specialist provision. It's absolutely nothing like the OP has to deal with. The failing here is the system. This child should not be in a mainstream classroom. It's not fair on the child, the teacher, the other children.

kotcheff · 25/11/2024 21:39

SeriouslyStressed · 25/11/2024 21:30

My students are all non verbal, SLD and complex ASD. I still manage to involve most of them in assemblies, even if it's standing at the front holding an adults hand and the adult holds up some work they have done, or helps the child to hold something up to show people

This is the type of attitude that I'm getting and tbh it's part of the reason I'm considering going off sick. Why can't I say, as a professional, I don't think this child can cope and no one believes me? Do you really think I'm deliberately excluding him?

Removing him when he can't cope any longer is really distressing for him and the rest of the children at the best of times. We don't really want to have to do this in front of the entire P1-3 parent group.

OP posts:
angryanderson88 · 25/11/2024 21:41

I'm so sorry OP. And I say this as both a teacher and as a parent of a child with similar needs. The system is broken. This child should not be in your mainstream P1 class. I would not judge you for making it clear you cannot cope. As noone could deal with this in a way that fully supports this child while also providing a safe effective learning space for the other children.

Screamingabdabz · 25/11/2024 21:53

It’s horrendous that mainstream teachers are put in this position and feeling such despair that they feel the only choice is to ring in sick.

Headteachers are similarly powerless. They are pressured to take in children like this and have nothing to assuage to resultant stress and drain on their staff teams. Money doesn’t magically solve the problem.

Imagine too, being a curious well-behaved quiet sort of kid who wants to learn but has no choice but to sit listening to a classmate just screaming and kicking off all day. I knew a TA who worked close to a situation like this. She said all the other kids used to sit with shoulders hunched and looking strained. No one was happy.

I feel for you op (and the child involved). It’s totally unacceptable and unfair all round.

Martymcfly24 · 25/11/2024 22:06

Oh op I feel for you I was in this situation 3 years ago. This child was also particularly violent towards me also. We asked a parent to come to the rehearsal of the Christmas Concert so they could make an informed decision and when they saw how completely dysregulated and distressed the child was they decided they didn't want the whole school community seeing that and removed him from the concert.
The pantomine is also going to be a sensory overwhelming experience for him.
The head and parents need to understand this is not about you not coping but about putting that poor child into a position where he is completely in distress and they have a responsibility to ensure that does not happen for him (because as we all know you will never be the priority)

doodleZ1 · 25/11/2024 22:11

It’s ridiculous you are facing this. I would phone your Union tomorrow and ask for advice. They will I imagine state you shd have a risk assessment and additional staffing to cope. They will ask what additional support you have for this pupil. Your employer has a duty of care to its staff. Duty of care, remember those words. They can’t legally ignore the affect this is having on you and your health and well-being. Also you will have a union rep explain the situation to them and that you feel this won’t work and you want to see what can be done to make it work. Ask for a meeting with the Head with the union rep present. It’s hard taking on a head teacher but this is a situation where the head shd be supporting you not putting their head in the sand. I know there are area Union reps for secondary schools in Scotland. From what I rem their name and phone number were in the Union diary if these are still given? Phone them for advice. You should not be put under this stress and it affects your health. It’s not all about the pupils, there is a duty of care to employees and you can’t do the impossible without adequate resources and you’ve not been given them. That is your employers problem. Def contact your union. If you are up to it inform your Head that you will do it if no satisfactory resolution is found to make this work for everyone concerned. You are not in the wrong here. A simple email to the head stating you are concerned about the situation, your employer has a duty of care to its employees and you intend contacting your union for advice if it’s not rectified shd get their attention. That way you have proof you feel there is an issue and asked for adequate resources and if the situation does result in a public meltdown you warned them. It’s ridiculous to put all this on you.

Corrrrrblimey · 25/11/2024 22:36

I would consider approaching the Panto trip from the angle of the safety of other pupils. If this one pupil is so high risk and likely to run off, what is the risk to the remaining children in your care if you have to run after him? I would ensure a risk assessment is completed and that his parent is at the school the morning of the trip to accompany him from leaving school until you return.

I would advise also speaking to the union about the lack of support/ strain this young person is having on you and your mental health and that you feel unsupported by senior leaders in supporting him. It seems that the pupil’s needs are not being met, but the likelihood is that the needs of other kids in the class are probably being detrimentally impacted by such a “high tariff” pupil, not to mention the impact on you and any support staff. If he screams to communicate and doesn’t take adult instruction, a risk assessment sounds completely necessary. Does he have a diagnosis of anything which might open up more support in school for him?
You absolutely have my sympathy. I’ve been in a similar situation and it feels like there are no winners. The pupil in question is not benefitting from his school experience, you are run ragged trying to do the right thing and all the other pupils are not getting the best version of their teacher because she is overstretched, under resourced and not being listened to!