The Scottish power grab?

[Mango1982]

The SNP has unveiled sinister plans to make its emergency Covid powers permanent. Deputy First Minister John Swinney says it's an opportunity to maintain the brilliant 'innovations' the SNP has made in the last 15 months.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/17/scottish-government-wants-make-emergency-covid-powers-permanent/

Not shocked at all but worried yes !
I knew governments wouldn’t never want to give back these powers they never do 🤷‍♀️

Yep, it's sinister as feck.

Add that to the power share with the greens who hardly anybody voted for and yet they moan that Tories are in charge in westminster that they didn't vote for. I didn't vote for any of those but hey, that's democracy isn't it? Does my head in.

Animal Farm anyone?

SNP and Greens - a marriage made in Edinburgh .

Who knows what horrors they will come up with between them .

Interesting to see Kate Forbes couldn’t answer any of the tough questions re deficit . Just trots out the same old mantra re pulling levers .

I’d love to hear a journalist ask Kate Forbes exactly what she’s do different in an independent Scotland to ensure no deficit.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

I’d love to hear a journalist ask Kate Forbes exactly what she’s do different in an independent Scotland to ensure no deficit.

Propose a national "Check down the back of the Sofa day"? Followed by the "check in all your old jacket pockets day" And "Ebay your old shite for Scotland" week.

There's a thread in Coronavirus with links to the public consultation, hopefully this works.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/4325729-Scotland-wants-to-make-covid-powers-permanent

The power to close all education settings on a whim with the safeguard being 'the advice of the CMO' is particularly concerning to me, as is the virtual courts system which I don't believe the police stations are equipped to handle.

The power for public health to close educational establishments has always existed.
If you remember e-coli outbreaks where schools and nurseries have closed- and where children have been seriously ill and in some terrible cases have died.
What's the difference in the extended powers? It means that private schools must now comply.
Can't believe people think public health guidance for children is something we should object to or politicise.

I'm interested in which private schools didn't close?
I'm Edinburgh and they all closed round here.

There may have been the occasional boarding house still open in Scotland for children living there who couldn't get home, but they were doing online schooling just like everyone else.

I think @Sootess that was exceptional because of the pandemic but if the legislation continues will just bring them in line with other establishments. Of course most places would be sensible and close but there are some eg private nurseries who might need fees or places who don't agree with aspects of medical treatment ( eg Steiner )

It's not just about schools though is it? It's also the powers to lock down, keep mandatory mask wearing etc etc

Have you read the document @ElephantOfRisk

@visitingagain what do you mean "the powers for public health to X"?

This FOI request says:

Response

1. "What powers do the Scottish Government have to close down Schools anytime they want?"

Scottish Ministers do not have general powers to order or direct schools to close, as it is education authorities which have the statutory responsibility to provide education in Scotland. However, the UK Coronavirus Act 20200_ gave Scottish Ministers powers to make two types of direction – the educational closure direction (section 37 and part 2 of schedule 16) and the educational continuity direction (section 38 and part 2 of schedule 17).

These powers allow Scottish Ministers to:

1. direct closure of a specific school(s) or other educational establishment(s) where it is necessary and proportionate.
2. dis-apply or relax elements of education law so that local authorities and proprietors can focus on dealing with the outbreak.
3. direct educational establishments to take on additional functions relating to educational continuity, e.g. providing childcare or transport services.
4. direct the reopening of educational establishments or that pupils/students can be taught in other establishments.

It literally says above that they did not have the powers before. Now, they can do 1 2 3 and 4?

Also... what is the definition of "necessary and proportionate"? Who decides? Apparently it's the CMO - who I'd argue should not have the authority or power.

Ah perhaps private nurseries.

IME private schools tend to very much follow government guidance and best practice as they are terrified of their insurance not being valid if they are going against recommendations.
We have had this quoted to us when parents are querying why something can't happen!

With the new coalition and the lack of a second chamber they will get all the power they want.

No checks and balances.

And then the 45% will happily keep voting for them.

Powers to close educational establishments
Power to make public health regulations ( if needed ): if we need to implement public health restrictions it won't need new emergency powers raised
Powers to let people who aren't GPS give vaccinations
Powers to hold public meetings about school closures virtually
Continue virtual licensing boards
Bankruptcy- using electronic hearings and documents
Using email for a variety of notices (!!!!!!!!!)
Electronic signatures for named person in mental health emergencies
Remote registration of still births
( incredible that hasn't been possible before now)
Remote registration of live births
Courts- virtual hearings, remand , early release of prisoners
Changing and extended court hearing time limits
Protection for tenants
Legal aid
Further legislation on proceeds of crime

Well @rightenough when a FOI is submitted you get an exact answer to your question. So technically the
power to shut schools rests with Local Authorities. However, this can be advised by the Scottish Government on the recommendation of the CMO and local authorities will not generally go against the Scottish ministers.
So the difference in practice is that private establishments will be directed to close by the ministers, if this goes ahead.
None of this is a power grab or revolutionary and was in the contingency plans for the swine flu outbreak which thankfully did not lead to the situation we have had with covid.

@visitingagain yep... roll up everything under the sun and throw it all into one consultation and hope everyone can't be bothered to read through it all. Then add in the kitchen sink for good measure.

Listen, maybe some of the changes are good. Maybe. Maybe if they were so good, they wouldn't have had to bring them in overnight as emergency measures and then attempt to keep them....?

Maybe if they need them again they can just do what they did in 2020 and literally decide what they want to do and push it through overnight? Like how the police could suddenly enter your home for any made up nonsense and nobody batted an eyelid... those powers.

When legislation to deal with emergencies is required, it can be requested and put through the proper channels as it did before. There is no need to retain powers. I'm sure we were told that such things would not be retained a day more than necessary and yet here we are.

Also @rightenough I wasn't referring to government at all. Public Health teams can and do advise schools and nurseries to close if there is an outbreak of various diseases - norovirus, rsv e-coli. And it's public health who are advising schools whether they should stay open at the moment, they decide whether it's an outbreak or not. Most Public Health teams aren't even lead by GPS mostly they are extremely skilled nurses.

And if any of it is a good idea to keep then it can go through the proper channels and be kept. It's the attemptng to circumvent even the shitiest of systems that we do have that is the problem. If it's a good idea, put it forward and allow a discussion and a vote. Waste of time obviously as the SNP sheep will do as they are told and the system in Holyrood is, putting it mildly, less than robust anyway.

@visitingagain yes, that is the point.

It is the Scottish Government view that education authorities hold the relevant functions to close or open their schools. However, where Scottish Ministers have given a direction under the Coronavirus Act 2020 to an education authority which requires closure (as was the case with the Educational Continuity Directions in force from 21 May to 10 August), the education authority must comply with that direction.

Pre 2020, education authorities.

Post 2020 power grab, Scottish government with the 'safeguard' being the Chief Medical Officer who has fuck all to do with education.

@ElephantOfRisk and @rightenough The only but you can possibly disagree with in there is the public health legislation which probably means we can go up and down levels again. Do you actually disagree with virtual registration of still births?? Or legal aid for people who desperately need it?

I can't see what the difference is @rightenough do you truly believe the local authorities would fight to the death against government advice to keep schools open ? And that if they did this for a mad political reason that would be ok? And that we shouldn't follow the advice of the CMO ?

It's not about whether we agree or disagree with individual items. There is a process in place to have those agreed and changed as required. There may well be things that in retrospect have worked well and the case can be made for those to be kept. Not this piecemeal ram everything together and hope people don't notice.

I guess that's why they are consulting @ElephantOfRisk so please have your say and encourage others to do the same.