The Scottish power grab?

[Mango1982]

The SNP has unveiled sinister plans to make its emergency Covid powers permanent. Deputy First Minister John Swinney says it's an opportunity to maintain the brilliant 'innovations' the SNP has made in the last 15 months.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/17/scottish-government-wants-make-emergency-covid-powers-permanent/

Not shocked at all but worried yes !
I knew governments wouldn’t never want to give back these powers they never do 🤷‍♀️

I've known transwomen in Scotland for thirty years. The transwomen I know wouldn't dream of muscling in (no pun intended) on women's spaces.

So they dress as women but use the male loos? That must be unusual surely?

@visitingagain

I don't think anyone needs to go to a panel to prove they are black, gay, disabled ( unless they are trying to get benefits) and if you're born make or female you don't need to go to a panel to confirm that.. *@Grellbunt* *@forfucksakenett* I wonder if anyone has ever been turned down at these panels! I think the risk of being attacked in a so called safe space is really minimal and paints the whole of a vulnerable group with the actions of one or two twisted individuals. The main issue with this whole argument is it is based in the idea that trans women are not real women.

But they aren't "real" women, because being a woman is a physiological state. Not a mental state. The only thing about me that separates me from men is my female body. That's all there is to it for me.

It’s really not hard to find a link to the furore surrounding the Edinburgh rape crises centre a quick google search will find it. Even a basic search on this website will help you understand what is already happening when you take away females hard won rights to single sex spaces.

@visitingagain

I don't think anyone needs to go to a panel to prove they are black, gay, disabled ( unless they are trying to get benefits) and if you're born make or female you don't need to go to a panel to confirm that.. *@Grellbunt* *@forfucksakenett* I wonder if anyone has ever been turned down at these panels! I think the risk of being attacked in a so called safe space is really minimal and paints the whole of a vulnerable group with the actions of one or two twisted individuals. The main issue with this whole argument is it is based in the idea that trans women are not real women.

You have to submit evidence and be examined to get medical treatment, be admitted to professions, drive, claim benefits, get a blue badge - the list is endless. Because society has gatekeeping to protect other people from the consequences of fraud/bad faith etc! This is entirely normal in a well organised society. It's hardly persecution.

As far as we've discussed it, and tbh we usually have far more interesting stuff to talk about, accessible loos usually. And tbh, they're both over 6' tall and wear jeans and shirts so in the men's bogs no-one bat's an eyelid.

Self id goes much further than toilets but everyone keeps focusing on this.

If anyone who calls themselves a woman is automatically a woman then this has huge implications for women’s rights to single sex provision.

Rape victims would no longer be able the request a biological female to examine them as there is no longer a differential.

Female prisoners can be placed in cells with women who have a penis, bearing in mind that many of these women have been abused throughout their lives.

If the head of Edinburgh tape centre gets her way, no longer access a biological female counsellor.

And then we have women’s sport in which is open to abuse from men who just don’t cut it down in their sport and self id as a woman and suddenly they are Olympic champion. Countries will no longer need to come up with ways to use performance enhancing drugs to buck the system.

We take all of our hard won single sex rights for granted but self id puts these at risk.

And how many of us would be happy sending our little girls to guide camp to sleep in the same room as a person who has a penis.

Many will argue that trans women are not a risk to women which will be true for the vast majority just like the vast majority of men are not a risk to women. However that doesn’t mean that we drop the basic concept of safeguarding just to spare the feelings of others.

Selkies, so true. Dmum was in hospital a few years ago, and same sex wards were supposed to be the norm but she ended up on a male ward for a couple of nights due to bed shortages. She had to use a commode and had male patients opening bed curtains while she was on the loo, and generally felt a bit unsafe and nervous.

Sometimes, I need to feel safe, and that means being in a space with no men.

Single sex wards should be a no brainer with single rooms for people who might not feel safe in a multi bedded ward. I went to visit my Dad in hospital after he'd had an operation on his back and the guy across the ward decided to have a wank under the covers while looking at me. I was 14. Imagine being a woman on a ward with someone like that? The poor nurses who had to then deal with him.

Gawd, elephant that sounds horrendous. The ward mum was on was a geriatric ward so a fair few of the patients were suffering from dementia and were a bit erratic - she was eventually moved to a women's geriatric ward, and while there were a few 'interesting' patients, she didn't feel unsafe.

It's like the stories on here from women in maternity units feeling uncomfortable having unrelated men in close proximity while trying to establish feeding etc. Sometimes women need women only spaces.

These instances all demonstrate why we need to retain our single sex spaces and not just throw open the doors to any man who declares that the are a woman with no other requirements needed in order to access our single sex spaces.

Is there any woman who hasn't had some sort of harassment or abuse by the time they are an adult?

They didn’t wait until I was an adult.

But I was lucky and got off very lightly so wasn’t a biggy in my life but this is why the basic principles of safeguarding must be kept as if we throw the doors open it will be abused.

Me either selkie, I don't even remember how old I was but probably pre school. Although to be fair a prostitute tried to pick me up when I was about 12, presuming I was a boy?

But we are being hysterical and succumbing to right wing media in trying to stand up for our rights. It truly blows my mind.

Well it does me too selkie but then our lived experience as women doesn't matter and anyone can assume that. I'm not saying that life can't be difficult for people with confused identity but how does making that better mean that it needs to be worse for 50% of the population.

I was largely oblivious to the trans debate before the more extreme TRAs started pushing into single sex spaces (physical and otherwise). I very much took a live and let live mindset and would (and still do) happily call anyone whatever name or use whatever pronouns they prefer. Ironically the push for more transrights has made me question if things had already gone too far in some cases.

If it is indeed the case that a transperson can already legally change their sex rather than gender then this needs to be looked at again. Perhaps we need separate boxes for sex and gender but it is scientifically impossible to change sex as this is a function of biology, nothing else. If transpeople are putting down the wrong sex on forms this has serious implications for accurate data collection in, for example, medical research. Take the recent announcement that the SG wants to become a world leader in women's health, with one example being that women present differently when having a heart attack. They don't present differently because of the 'feeling' that they are a woman - they present differently because their biology is different. Sex matters hugely and we do everyone a disservice when we pretend it's interchangeable with the social construct of 'gender'.

The biggest problem with self ID for me is that it removes a layer of checks and protections for women's spaces, particularly if there is no requirement to transition in any physical way. Women have single sex spaces protected in law for very good reason, and it smacks a bit of 'I'm alright Jack' when people argue we don't need them because they personally never use them. There are still plenty of communal changing areas where women frequently are naked, my local gym for one, and allowing male bodied people in there without challenge would act as an effective barrier to those women using the facilities. There are many other examples where women are vulnerable of course, like hospitals as mentioned above. Of course most transwomen are not dangerous, just as most men are not dangerous, but neither are they women and thus don't belong in protected single sex spaces.

On a more personal note, I am being gently 'encouraged' to put my pronouns after my name on emails etc.as apparently this makes transpeople feel more included. I'm resisting (as are most people tbh if zoom meetings are an indication) because I feel quite strongly that I don't want my gender to be my defining characteristic. I've spent most of my adult life wanting people to look past my womanhood to see only my abilities, and I think it's hugely regressive to try to stick everyone back into boxes rather than see them as individuals.

I expect you all browse the feminist boards here but thought I add a link to this current thread.

Surrey Police Commissioner: Stonewall pushes dangerous trans ideology http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4329313-Surrey-Police-Commissioner-Stonewall-pushes-dangerous-trans-ideology

Oh, thanks @LizzieMacQueen. I feel quite emotional after reading that. What a brilliant woman. Just actual sense!

Regarding the request for pronouns, apparently it could be distressing for people who have not yet fixed on their identity to be asked, so I feel it’s more sensitive not to engage in this. And that will be my answer.

Reports that police were called to the Doctors Bar in Edinburgh as women were in there wearing “No Thank You” T shirts….

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I was also a live and let live/be kind/what’s the problem with self id kind of person but once you see what this actually means in reality you realise what we have to lose.

As for the drs bar in Edinburgh I am sure the good people of Edinburgh will sleep easy knowing that 5 police officers turned up to such a heinous crime. Especially those who got attacked, house broken into, etc.

we've been asked to add pronouns, i'm not doing that.

So right on the pronouns @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us - I do not want to define myself by my pronouns and don't I have a right not to as well?

I've seen that's happened at firms I work with and it's at once a low cost gesture thing for a firm, and also sinister to encourage people that don't want to, to fall in line.

visitingagain
You think it's possible to change sex and have the nerve to call other people bonkers
You talk in TRA/SNP soundbites
If a woman is not a biological female then what is it?
Women's rights and spaces do not exist if anyone can self id as a woman. How do you feel about a person identifying as a different race, age or ethnicity?