The Scottish power grab?

[Mango1982]

The SNP has unveiled sinister plans to make its emergency Covid powers permanent. Deputy First Minister John Swinney says it's an opportunity to maintain the brilliant 'innovations' the SNP has made in the last 15 months.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/17/scottish-government-wants-make-emergency-covid-powers-permanent/

Not shocked at all but worried yes !
I knew governments wouldn’t never want to give back these powers they never do 🤷‍♀️

Jeezo don't tag me or tell me what to do.

You've still not explained why you tagged me in the first place, your excuse about it being in the middle of an argument didn't wash I'm afraid. You deliberately targeted me above other posters and lied about why and didn't apologise.

Okaaaay. Have you actually read this thread in its entirety?

I'm not telling you what to do. I'm making a suggestion. You take it or leave it

And I really haven't lied at all. This is all a bit surreal / delusional tbh.

STOP IT THE PAIR OF YOU.

I have enough squabbling at home without people going at it here too.

Looks like we have to go back to this again.

The new plans do not require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it’s self ID they want.

It’s not right wing to be against this attempt to erase women and their safe spaces.

Nor the attempts to inveigle children into this crazy idea that gender identity is based on stereotypes, and requires secrets to be kept from there parents. And life altering decisions made by children who might want to be unicorns.

Of course, trans people should also be safe.

I’m left wing by persuasion. But this is far more important than party politics.

"The thing is though, I actually relate somewhat to this because this was me in my early 20s.

I'm a classic SNP voter. SNP could have my vote without even trying. Grew up in one of the most deprived areas. Disenfranchised with "the establishment". Back in 2014 I strongly believed independence was the only way to make things better. I loved MN but didn't really agree with the politics - though back then there was definitely more of "us" who served as an "opposition".

Then I had reasons to use the NHS and I had children going through the education system and I had to buy a house and I looked around and I wondered: what is actually better now?

Seriously? What have they done for us? Poverty and drugs are just as bad in my area - if not worse - than when I grew up. And they blame Westminster until they are blue in the face but if they can't do ANYTHING, anything at all, then what the actual fuck is the point in them? Why do they exist?

You need to step back and ask why places like Mumsnet are an echo chamber against them while places like Reddit are an echo chamber in favour of them. Who are typical MN users? Who are typical Reddit users?

They're the same types of people who think Jeremy Corbyn had all the answers too and if it wasn't for the nasty media not giving him a fair chance we'd be living in the land of milk and honey.

They say things that make naive socialists jizz but it's all just nonsense when you have a bit of life experience and children who need jobs one day and a mortgage that needs paying and kids running riot on the streets with motorbikes.

Education - worse than I was in school and I'm only 30.
Policing - was married to one, spent 90% of his time dealing with people who need mental health help
NHS - almost killed by negligence, lost so much weight my clothes didn't fit because the food is inedible, had to travel to the opposite end of the country for an Op so it looked good for their failing waiting times
Drugs - highest drug deaths in Scotland
Youth Unemployment - 45,000 and counting and that's what our children have to look forward to.

Meanwhile they are fannying around with a hate crime bill nobody needed (because apparently it doesn't infringe on free speech because it can only be used for things that would be a crime anyway??? Make that make sense) and 4 year olds changing sex without telling their parents.

Oh and of course lockdowns and Covid. (While simultaneously having the second highest rate of care home deaths. You know, the people who are actually really vulnerable to the disease).

The SNP have given us... a nanny state. While simultaneously failing to meet their targets for, you know, actual childcare

So yeah, you might want to think about the demographics of the MN hive-mind and ask what the SNP have actually been doing to serve them over the last decade?"

@rightenough I am well into my 50s so forgive me on life experience but I'm sure I have a lot more than you do. I remember when we were belted at school and when most kids didn't even get Highers and if you had any disabilities you were sent away. I remember the 90s drug scene and the toll that took.

I remember when we got the parliament at Holyrood which the queen opened. I remember Donald Dewar dying. I remember the way all parties worked together at first and then I remember how the Labour administration sent back money to Westminster while lining the pockets of builders who put up schools that fell down. While waiting lists were long and while the social housing I lived in crumbled.
So that's why the SNP are in power now.
Yeah it's not perfect now but it is so much better than you can imagine.

Care home deaths are/ were horrendous but that was also a uk national policy and it needs a full enquiry. It was a mistake and so is farming out elderly care to low paid crappy temporary jobs to companies that make a profit.

You got the operation.

Going to uni is no longer just for the top 5%.

Your inedible food is not something Nicola has responsibility for- Hope you complained.

Strangely, the OECD still rate Scotland's education system in the top 20 globally.

The bit about 4 year olds is utter pish - have you been near a school recently and do you think this is likely to happen without any uproar?

How does full time free nursery places for all children not meet childcare needs?

If we had first past the post here, the SNP would have a 91 seat majority.

@TheGenealogist

STOP IT THE PAIR OF YOU.

I have enough squabbling at home without people going at it here too.

sorry, but i'm getting sick of being pulled into stuff that was nothing to do with me. I know i shouldn't rise to it.

@ElephantOfRisk

Looks like we have to go back to this again.

Or, you know, maybe don't accuse folk of lying when they aren't 🤷🏻‍♀️

Don't stir shit up and then pull out your big grey rock?

Apologies @TheGenealogist I find it hard not to defend myself. It must be exceptionally irritating for others to read. Sorry.

Hi @WouldBeGood since 2010 or so self ID has been defacto under the European Court of Human Rights but of course who knows how we stand with that now. Previous to that under the 2004 Act trans people had to stand in front of a panel to get official recognition one of the requirements was that they lived as their self identified gender already.
So the only actual difference is that they don't have to stand in front of a panel and prove they are trans which is a horrific abuse of human rights. They just self Id and then get surgery if they want or are ready for it.

@WouldBeGood

The new plans do not require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, it’s self ID they want.

It’s not right wing to be against this attempt to erase women and their safe spaces.

Nor the attempts to inveigle children into this crazy idea that gender identity is based on stereotypes, and requires secrets to be kept from there parents. And life altering decisions made by children who might want to be unicorns.

Of course, trans people should also be safe.

I’m left wing by persuasion. But this is far more important than party politics.

I am deeply concerned by this but do we think that this is stoppable really? I'm not so sure.

I also take @visitingagain point that self id has to an extent has been in force, through behaviour if not law, for years.

I want to try to stop it because I feel it’s wrong. The rights of women and gay people have been long and hard fought for. I just feel I need to make a stand. If enough people do, we can change things for the better.

Yes @forfucksakenett it's really concerning that we have allowed ourselves as feminists to get drawn into this divide and conquer red herring. The law will only correct a human rights abuse - why should people have to stand in front of a panel?
You don't have to stand in front of a panel to prove your personal identity for pretty much anything else.
So " they have walked among us" for many years. Where did trans people go to the toilet or try on clothes or swim previously? Where did they go when they fled domestic violence or rape?
They went to women's safe spaces because they are women.
This is a right wing red herring to divide women and cause distraction- witch hunt, reds under the beds, paedophiles, gay plague.. don't fall for it.
For people who are opposed to the SNP it's a very lazy thoughtless and prejudiced way to oppose.

@WouldBeGood rights don't work like that. They aren't finite and no one can take rights away from you. You are born with them and they are indivisible. That's like saying you have only got so much love to go round so if you have another baby they will get less love than the first.
So if other people gain rights, you also keep yours.

I just don't think that there's a way to stop the tide without appearing like a bigot.

My heart tells me that biological sex is important and that women's spaces must be protected but my head tells me that the only way that can happen in by restricting the rights of a minority vulnerable group 🤷🏻‍♀️

The problem is the 'fake' trans people for want of a better word who would use progress to abuse women. The vast majority of transwomen will of course genuinely live their lives as women and be of zero threat to anyone. I've never struggled with any cultural issue more.

Going to uni is no longer just for the top 5%.

And it wasn't in the 90s either - the tail end of the Tories and the new Labour govt. I went to uni in 96 and a few years earlier Glasgow Caley and Paisley Uni had been created. So that is not something the SNP have enabled. I do agree that it is free though and it should be throughout the UK.

Strangely, the OECD still rate Scotland's education system in the top 20 globally.

I remember an English chap on holiday saying to my parents how lucky their children were to be having a Scottish Education. That's not the case now. My kids go to school in England. They are getting a better education than their cousins. It's really not acceptable.

Care home deaths are/ were horrendous but that was also a uk national policy and it needs a full enquiry. It was a mistake and so is farming out elderly care to low paid crappy temporary jobs to companies that make a profit.

It really doesn't matter how it was in the rest of the UK. Scotland needs to stop doing this. The govt are doing noone any favours trying to excuse their mistakes by comparing to England.

I do know of other unis btw

@visitingagain

Hi *@WouldBeGood* since 2010 or so self ID has been defacto under the European Court of Human Rights but of course who knows how we stand with that now. Previous to that under the 2004 Act trans people had to stand in front of a panel to get official recognition one of the requirements was that they lived as their self identified gender already. So the only actual difference is that they don't have to stand in front of a panel and prove they are trans which is a horrific abuse of human rights. They just self Id and then get surgery if they want or are ready for it.

People have to prove all sorts of things to enforce their rights. And very few entitlements can be proven without objective evidence ie just on someone's say so. So it is not "a horrific abuse of human rights". Such hyperbole.

I'm not excusing care home deaths @Wakeupin2022 in March 2020 medical advice across the UK at the time was discharge everyone to free up beds and they didn't have tests so no one knew who had covid. It was a disgrace as was the general lack of PPE.
There needs to be an enquiry- and private care providers need to be challenged. No one should make a profit from elder care and the worst offenders are huge offshores companies with locations in every home nation. I completely agree with you- If Scotland goes first on this I will be delighted.
I know it's hard to believe but we really do have an excellent education system by international standards and measures and that is mainly down to teachers in schools not the system. We score the highest out of pretty much everyone on critical thinking skills, acceptance of difference!!!! and on flexibility- great workplace skills.
We sit squarely on the OECD averaged for literacy, numeracy and some aspects of science and a huge number of people are educated to degree level -40%. ( that's also degree level apprenticeship) . Lots to still improve but it really isn't terrible.

The right to a same sex safe place is being taken away.

And rape victims needing to be “re-educated” is just horrific.

I don't think anyone needs to go to a panel to prove they are black, gay, disabled ( unless they are trying to get benefits) and if you're born make or female you don't need to go to a panel to confirm that.. @Grellbunt @forfucksakenett I wonder if anyone has ever been turned down at these panels!
I think the risk of being attacked in a so called safe space is really minimal and paints the whole of a vulnerable group with the actions of one or two twisted individuals.
The main issue with this whole argument is it is based in the idea that trans women are not real women.

@WouldBeGood do you have a link to this re-education?
I'm also curious to find out how many same sex safe spaces people access regularly. I can only think of communal changing rooms but since most of my time in them is spent trying to change as quickly as possible I wouldn't know who was in there with me!
It's not a terribly common thing in Scotland to have places where women all strip off together and wander about, really...a bit chilly ..

@visitingagain it’s been all over the news this week. Edinburgh Rape Crisis boss.

@WouldBeGood can you post a link ?

Visitingagain, I'm probably a similar age to you.

As a young woman I've been sexually harrassed, under paid, passed over for promotion.

As a fifty odd year old I'll no longer put up with the crap.

I've known transwomen in Scotland for thirty years. The transwomen I know wouldn't dream of muscling in (no pun intended) on women's spaces. They also know fine well they're not biologically women. What's happening currently is TRAs are aggressively using grc/a legislation to remove hard won women's rights.

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, trans women are not, and can never be women.

No-one on any of these threads ever has explained what 'feeling' like a woman means. It's just a biological fact.,it has feck all to do with feelings. But the biology means women are vulnerable and deserve their spaces.

Again, the TW I know are not interested in activism - they live their lives without impinging on anyone's rights/spaces. The last thing they want is to make women feel uncomfortable.

There have been enough instances of 'transwomen' accessing women's spaces for reasons which don't bear scrutiny to put a halt to the gra/c.