They didn’t learn from the named persons fiasco

[Mango1982]

twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1425875063149051906?s=20

🤷‍♀️😳

To think teachers maybe changing your child’s name covertly and keeping the name change a secret from parents

They didn’t learn form the named Persons over reach

@StarryEyeSurprise given that even Mermaids have dropped the use of the phrase 'born in the wrong body', how do you believe that someone realises that they identify as trans? I've seen this question being asked a lot but answers always seems to rely on gender stereotypes.

If the gender they were born with doesn't align with their gender identity (which is the internal perception of their gender and how they label themselves).

@StarryEyeSurprise

If the gender they were born with doesn't align with their gender identity (which is the internal perception of their gender and how they label themselves).

How many hoops did you have to jump through to come up with that?

Note - internal perception. It's not for anyone else to decide.

What do you mean Lady?

It would be useful if you could explain your understanding of gender identity without using gender stereotypes. You've given a fairly circular answer.

I've stated the definition used in Public Health Scotland training actually.
You don't seem to get it. I'm not a trans person. I was born a female and my internal gender identity is female. Trans people will have a miss match there and it's impossible for me to say why as I'm not one of them. I don't know why this is so confusing for you. People feel how they feel.

@StarryEyeSurprise

I've stated the definition used in Public Health Scotland training actually. You don't seem to get it. I'm not a trans person. I was born a female and my internal gender identity is female. Trans people will have a miss match there and it's impossible for me to say why as I'm not one of them. I don't know why this is so confusing for you. People feel how they feel.

This. People are obsessed with their own understanding of their own gender identity and refuse to consider the notion that other people feel differently.

At the end of the day whether folk like it or not people do identify as the opposite gender and will live whatever they feel their authentic life is. They will also be supported to do this, not just in Scotland but in most of the western world. Although I have huge issues with how that impacts women's rights, I can't help but feel that there is a fair amount of very judgmental and bigoted thinking from a lot of people on this matter which is very distasteful and unhelpful.

I'm not confused. I just don't subscribe to the idea of 'gender identity' as it is so heavily based on gender stereotypes. People can identify however they want but I was just struck at the incongruity at you challenging another poster who as a child identified as gender non conforming because of the gender stereotypes in the community she grew up in (you scoffed at the idea that maths was seen as for boys as an example).

I don't have a 'gender identity'. I just am.

I don't have a 'gender identity'. I just am.

Lucky you. It's not as simple as that for some people.

This is a bit like white folk saying they don't see race. Of course they don't. They don't need to.

This is a bit like white folk saying they don't see race. Of course they don't. They don't need to.

It's not the same thing at all. Gender and gender identity are social constructs. Race is not.

But nice strawman.

But sex isn't a social construct.

The analogy stands. You are privileged because you've never had to think about your gender identity. It matches your sex. No problem for you.

There are aspects of race discussions that are socially constructed even although race itself is a biological fact. See the Jesy Nelson black fishing scandal recently. It wasn't just the darkening of her skin that caused the issue. It was the associated behaviour, dress, hair, jewellery, sounds and so on.

Stop trying to simplify something complicated.

We agree that sex isn't a social construct.

You can't identity out of your sex. There is discrimination and harassment women are subject to because of their biology, not because they have some sort of nebulous gender identity.

You also can't identify out of your race. That's why (among other reasons) blackfishing is so abhorrent. It's someone cherrypicking the bits of a culture which will benefit them while still benefiting from being part of the privileged race.

@StarryEyeSurprise I have never said that teachers were likely to teach this, in fact I have said that I’m not personally aware that it is being taught in our school. However, I have also had to have conversations with my children to challenge gender stereotypes that they have picked up while at school. My son once said to me that he wanted to be a girl because he wanted long hair - as a young child he had no concept of the complexities of gender theory, he just equated the stereotype of long hair with ‘girl’. Looking through the book ‘I am Jade’ it seems to push similar stereotypical thinking -I am a girl because I like to wear these things and do these things. I find that kind of thinking regressive.

Sex and gender are two very different things, and most of the conflict with women’s rights would be avoided if this was universally recognised. An alarming number of people use these interchangeably, hence the expectation that transgender people should be given free access to single sex spaces. I have huge sympathy with people who feel their gender identity doesn’t match their biological sex, and issues with single sex spaces aside am supportive of people’s ‘right’ to live as they choose. But I’m not so naive as to think that children who are still forming their identity, particularly very young children (and the guidance talks about children of any age so potentially at primary school) can understand ‘gender’ in a way that isn’t based on stereotypes.

You can't identity out of your sex. There is discrimination and harassment women are subject to because of their biology, not because they have some sort of nebulous gender identity.

You can identify out of your sex. Thousands of people do.

It depends what type of harassment and discrimination you mean. A transwoman who 'passes' as a woman is likely to have a similar lived experience, from a certain point, as a woman and face the same harassment and discrimination as a woman.

@forfucksakenett What's your opinion on the removal of the word Mother from maternity leaflets/advice. Changed to 'birthing parents' apparently. I'll link to a thread, if it's still around.

I'm not particularly spoiling for a fight but you seem quite informed about these gender matters.

I think it's appalling to replace the word mother in medical literature. I have no problem with adding in birthing parents alongside mother though.

I should have saved the link cause I cannot find it now - wonder if it was zapped - it's bizarre isn't it. Alienating the majority ??

You cannot identify out of your sex. You are again conflating sex and gender. Sex is immutable.

Woman are discriminated against due to the biological aspects of their sex. Women face maternity discrimination because of their sex (whether or not they have children). Women are currently being discriminated against because males are being allowed to compete in female sports - there are specific differences in biology which means that the competition is unfair. Women need single sex spaces because of their biology - menstruation, miscarriage etc.

Transwomen will experience discrimination but it will not be sex based discrimination. It will be gender discrimination.

@LizzieMacQueen do you mean this thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4375607-Mother-or-Birthing-Parent

People cannot change sex. They absolutely can identify outwith their born sex though. As I've said people do it all the time. Transwomen and trans men have used single sex spaces for my whole lifetime.

I am conflating sex and gender because we don't live in a world where we test people's chromosomes on a cellular level in our day to day encounters. We use gender markers which are often based on stereotypes to make assumptions about a persons sex. We might be right, we might be wrong. Ultimately, with the exception of sport which is a far more complex issue, it's none of our business though what a strangers born sex is though is it?

Yeah, stepping away from this now. Your continual conflation of sex and gender is intellectually dishonest and part of the issue around the erosion of women's single sex spaces.

If anyone on this thread is interested in why the conflation of sex and gender is such an issue, you may want to check out this thread - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Feel free to step away. I've explained why I've conflated them. The world conflates them and that's no new thing. You are never going to change anything if you refuse to actually engage with the world about you as it is and not how you wish it to be. Good luck with that.

Yes @Waitwhat23 , thank you.

.Why on earth would you have been given puberty blockers if you did not identify as trans? You exhibited some similar preferences / behaviours to trans kids but were not actually trans. Of course you wouldn't have had puberty blockers.

Surely some children and young people might easily identify as trans because they think they are trans (thanks to info online which explains their disconnect with their peers actually due to autism is because they're trans, dislike of breast formation, envy of female traits or male traits, because they are informed that they can change their sex, beacause nefarious people online encourage them to change sex, to emulate trans figures they admire etc).
How on earth can anyone KNOW a child in their class IS trans and would benefit from changing gender - no one can KNOW. They can think they know, the child can think they are trans but might not be.