They didn’t learn from the named persons fiasco

[Mango1982]

twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1425875063149051906?s=20

🤷‍♀️😳

To think teachers maybe changing your child’s name covertly and keeping the name change a secret from parents

They didn’t learn form the named Persons over reach

I struggle with the narrative of transpeople being the 'most oppressed and vulnerable' group in society' (which has been been repeated as a fact by various politicians over the last few weeks) when I see the effect of the chilling effect, the huge push by a special interest lobby group to eliminate single sex spaces and of course, the Denton document.

Transpeople are undoubtedly a group which suffer discrimination and need protection. However, there are 9 protected characteristics. Taking rights from one protected group and handing them to another protected group is not the right way to go about things.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

We make sure that ours understand they are a girl/boy (as appropriate) and that we have to use the right toilets and changing rooms, but we're also very clear that everyone can play with or look however they want and come down hard on stereotypes. We had a few chats about how girls don't always like princesses and boys can also have long hair. I try to get them to talk to me, so if they were being taught at school that e.g. X is really a boy because they like short hair and dinosaurs (or any other regressive nonsense) I can only hope they'd tell us.

If the school did question this, I'm very happy to explain to them that I have a PhD in Biological Sciences and a fairly good grasp of biology! Thankfully, there doesn't seem to be much sign of it filtering through so far, but they're a Catholic school so I don't know if that makes a difference.

This just screams of hyperbole to be honest @WouldBeGood. Do you really feel that a teacher may tell your child that a pupil is a boy because they ' like short hair and dinosaurs'?

[quote Waitwhat23]The Scottish Government is recommending it as a resource - "Supporting transgender young people in schools: guidance for Scottish schools - gov.scot" www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools/pages/7/[/quote]
It's being recommended as a resource for trans kids not for general teaching. Trans kids are entitled to some support surely?

From the document - 'The following resources can provide support to schools and schools staff to provide learning and teaching which is age and stage appropriate.' (my bold).

It's simply hyperbole to say 'trans kids are entitled to some support surely?'. Of course they are. The poster who mentioned the resource spoke about several issues with a specific book, which is being recommended by the Scottish Government. I would hope the resources will available to children questioning their gender were good quality and supported them adequately. It was suggested by the pp that this might not be the case.

Yes but that still doesn't mean it's going to be the class novel. It can be learning and teaching for one individual child or a small group.

@StarryEyeSurprise I assume you mean me and not @WouldBeGood since you quote my post. As I said, we haven’t had this personally (to my knowledge) but this guidance does allow for this if a teacher were so inclined. That ‘I am Jade’ book certainly seems to define ‘girl’ based on stereotypes. We have had a few conversations about comments like ‘only girls have long hair’ so these ideas are coming from somewhere, and I am actively guarding against it.

It doesn't work to quote you, forfucksakenett.
What is a trans kid? What is the difference between a trans boy and a gender non-conforming girl? I had very short hair till 17, used to bind my breasts with brown surgical tape (30 years ago) because boys would chase girls with breasts to grope them/shove them in a corner, aced at maths and chess, had no time for dolls or dresses, grazed my knees climbing fences and trees. Was I transgender? How do you differentiate today between someone like me and a trans boy? Do you see my concerns here?
Why do we need to medicalise children's behaviour? The brain is not separate from the rest of the body to believe the whole "girl brain in boy body", how do we test for this?
I agree with Professor Robert Winston, humans cannot change sex. Sex is in every cell of the body. Kindness is not enough, we owe people honesty.

Because as much as there were children like you who were gender non conforming there are also children and young people who do want to identify as trans. Why is your loved experience and wants and wishes okay but theirs aren't?

Of course medicalising children is sometimes appalling but so is denying some young people medication and forcing them into a situation that repulses them and causes them great mental anguish.

This is a frustrating debate because both sides really do refuse to even attempt to put themselves in each other's shoes.

Nobody is forcing anyone down a trans route. Teachers aren't all sitting looking for tomboys to 'convert'. We're pretty busy with our actual jobs. Am I glad though that there's a body of literature to refer kids to if they say they are trans? Yes.

People carry on on here as if we're getting an extra bonus if we can make our classrooms as gender diverse as possible.

And you might well agree with Dr Winston and he is of course scientifically correct but whether we like it or not people do, have and will continue to change their sex, as far as they possibly can. It's not just about science. In our day to day lives we tend not to ask for DNA tests. Lots of folk pass as the opposite sex. They may not scientifically have changed but for all other intents and purposes they have whether we like it or not.

[quote Y0uCann0tBeSer10us]@StarryEyeSurprise* I assume you mean me and not *@WouldBeGood since you quote my post. As I said, we haven’t had this personally (to my knowledge) but this guidance does allow for this if a teacher were so inclined. That ‘I am Jade’ book certainly seems to define ‘girl’ based on stereotypes. We have had a few conversations about comments like ‘only girls have long hair’ so these ideas are coming from somewhere, and I am actively guarding against it.[/quote]
Yes, apologies @WouldBeGood.

'The guidance allows for this'? Can you refer to the guidance please?

I can only speak about my experience but teachers and children are much more supportive and understanding of boys and girls dressing and styling themselves as they wish, including against traditional gender norms.
I have a boy in my class who has lovely long hair and comes into school with various, beautiful hairstyles. My son has long hair too. I've never had a bad comment from anyone.
I must admit that your thinking, to me, is completely irrational and diminishes the reality of what those who feel they are born in the wrong body, feel.

@forfucksakenett

Because as much as there were children like you who were gender non conforming there are also children and young people who do want to identify as trans. Why is your loved experience and wants and wishes okay but theirs aren't?

Of course medicalising children is sometimes appalling but so is denying some young people medication and forcing them into a situation that repulses them and causes them great mental anguish.

This is a frustrating debate because both sides really do refuse to even attempt to put themselves in each other's shoes.

Nobody is forcing anyone down a trans route. Teachers aren't all sitting looking for tomboys to 'convert'. We're pretty busy with our actual jobs. Am I glad though that there's a body of literature to refer kids to if they say they are trans? Yes.

People carry on on here as if we're getting an extra bonus if we can make our classrooms as gender diverse as possible.

But you still can't tell the difference, so some kids like myself will most probably receive puberty blockers and you seem to be ok with that because then other kids would be helped (?) There is no way we can test which kids are which, so I'm urging caution. I don't think giving puberty blockers to kids (the effects of which we don't know) is a good idea no matter how anguished they are about their bodies/minds. I rest my case, I've read extensively on this. We agree to disagree.

I'm very confused. Why on earth would you have been given puberty blockers if you did not identify as trans? You exhibited some similar preferences / behaviours to trans kids but were not actually trans. Of course you wouldn't have had puberty blockers.

And if I have read that wrongly him sorry. I appreciate it's a difficult and emotive topic and didn't mean to sound flippant in my response.

@forfucksakenett

And you might well agree with Dr Winston and he is of course scientifically correct but whether we like it or not people do, have and will continue to change their sex, as far as they possibly can. It's not just about science. In our day to day lives we tend not to ask for DNA tests. Lots of folk pass as the opposite sex. They may not scientifically have changed but for all other intents and purposes they have whether we like it or not.

You say he is correct in saying people can't change sex and then go on to say people will change their sex, these 2 can't be correct and true at the same time. The rest of your post makes no sense, unfortunately.

I said he is scientifically correct. Socially people can, have and will change their sex.

I'm probably not explaining myself well. I don't equate someone feeling they were born in the wrong body with hair length and teachers are unlikely to teach children that someone is a boy because they have short hair. That attitude was maybe around in the 1950s but things have moved on since then.

That comment was for @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us. .

No, human beings cannot change sex. Human beings can change gender. There are increasingly frequent anecdotal reports that children are being told (on social media particularly) that they can literally change sex and that a 'sex change' operation will change someone's sex, rather than make cosmetic changes. I've seen posters on the FWR board insist that they have literally changed sex, that they were and always have been a 'cis' woman.

Human beings can change gender. Gender stereotypes should be challenged - people should be able to like and wear whatever they want.

They can't change sex though.

@forfucksakenett

I said he is scientifically correct. Socially people can, have and will change their sex.

What does socially changing sex mean? What is sex? How do you define sex?

And of course, I wasn't trans, but you can only tell that with hindsight. We can't apply hindsight to the kids prescribed blockers now.

@LadyNotGivingaF

It doesn't work to quote you, forfucksakenett. What is a trans kid? What is the difference between a trans boy and a gender non-conforming girl? I had very short hair till 17, used to bind my breasts with brown surgical tape (30 years ago) because boys would chase girls with breasts to grope them/shove them in a corner, aced at maths and chess, had no time for dolls or dresses, grazed my knees climbing fences and trees. Was I transgender? How do you differentiate today between someone like me and a trans boy? Do you see my concerns here? Why do we need to medicalise children's behaviour? The brain is not separate from the rest of the body to believe the whole "girl brain in boy body", how do we test for this? I agree with Professor Robert Winston, humans cannot change sex. Sex is in every cell of the body. Kindness is not enough, we owe people honesty.

I also feel this comment belong in the 1950s. 'Aced at maths and chess.' 'Was I transgender?' So you're equating being good at maths with being a male?

What does socially changing sex mean? What is sex? How do you define sex?

It means that if I'm born a man but I feel like a woman and people who meet me think I'm a woman then socially I'm a woman. Sex is a biological term and I assume that's what you're getting at so Of it makes you feel better then I suppose I've changed gender rather than sex but what difference does that make really? In my day to day life I'm a woman.

And of course, I wasn't trans, but you can only tell that with hindsight. We can't apply hindsight to the kids prescribed blockers now.

Did you think you were trans at that time and believe you would have sought out medication had you known about it or are you assuming you would have been forced to take medication?

StarryEyeSurprise you're being purposefully flippant.
That's not what I said, I said I was a gender non-conforming girl. I come from a conservative religious culture where being good at maths was seen as a boy thing. Gender roles were very strict. Try paying attention.

@LadyNotGivingaF

StarryEyeSurprise you're being purposefully flippant. That's not what I said, I said I was a gender non-conforming girl. I come from a conservative religious culture where being good at maths was seen as a boy thing. Gender roles were very strict. Try paying attention.

I am paying attention, thank you .

You stated you might have been prescribed puberty blockers because, amongst other things, you were good at maths. Surely you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

I suppose I've changed gender rather than sex but what difference does that make really? In my day to day life I'm a woman.

The conflation of gender and sex is the difference. There are single sex spaces (specific exemptions under the Equality Act 2010) and the conflation means that there is a push from lobbying groups to redefine single sex as single gender. Stonewall now defines homosexuality as same gender attraction. Rape Crisis Edinburgh no longer offer single sex rape crisis services, they are now single gender. Women are self excluding from should be single sex services because they are not single sex services.

@Waitwhat23 yes I understand that. It's a very complex issue. I was trying to explain to @LadyNotGivingaF why it's not just a simple scientific issue.