Scunnered .... *insert tier pun

[dancemom]

New thread, couldn't think of a title 🙈

Did the Westminster Government not change their categorisation a couple of months ago to deaths from Covid, rather than the deaths with Covid that was used previously? I'm sure I read they were discussing it

And NS's nonsensical "different at all costs" regulations hit the trains. Yesterday, wide choice of trains to travel from Dundee to Yorkshire. Today, plenty going down but no space coming back.

Although we can get open returns, we run the risk of being turfed off as it crosses the border.

@Aurea

A quick questions about vaccines:

My 19 year old son has just received his at a drop in centre. He is registered at a GP practice at his uni in England. He lives in Scotland with us during vacations so the vaccination centre did not have any record of him.

All he had to give (a little worryingly) is his name, postcode and mobile number. No other evidence was required.

How do they tie up the individual and give evidence of vaccination if people have not had a letter due to not being registered in Scotland for health purposes? I have mine own vaccination registered on the NHS website.

Thanks

Same with my DS. Walk in fine but no other way to get the jag. DH is still jagging for the NHS so might be able to help with 2nd but most vaccine centres in Fife now closed on his working days. He is not getting shifts as all jagging is being done in a couple of centres far away from us.

@Cismyfatarse

And NS's nonsensical "different at all costs" regulations hit the trains. Yesterday, wide choice of trains to travel from Dundee to Yorkshire. Today, plenty going down but no space coming back.

Although we can get open returns, we run the risk of being turfed off as it crosses the border.

at mr and mrs Cis trudging home on foot from Berwick

I'm just having a chuckle after reading the article about the trains on the BBC website, and after quotes from NS that she expects operators to comply with the law in Scotland etc. etc. there is the throw away line "Meanwhile, operator ScotRail said "physical distancing can't be guaranteed" in stations or on trains and asks people to "take personal responsibility"."

So it's only those dirty trains coming up from England that need to comply with Scots law apparently, if you're on a purely Scottish route you can use 'personal responsibility' instead. Clear and consistent messaging as always.

Those filthy English trains 😱

I don't know... the Scotrail train I was on at the weekend had definitely been taking lessons from the London underground at rush hour (except for there only being one train an hour, not one every few minutes). It's all very well for them to say take personal responsibility, but if we'd followed FACTS (A= avoid crowded spaces, T = two metre distancing which isn't even the rule any more ) we wouldn't have been able to travel at any point. Because there would always be people willing to travel on the busy train if we'd decided to get off, even if it was empty when we got on. And actually, it was fine. Just like the old days. I'd rather have busy trains with some chance of a functioning rail service in the future than have them trundling around half empty haemmorhaging money.

In any case - what is "the law in Scotland"? I know face masks are, but has social distancing ever been law, as opposed to guidance? Surely that's impossible and unsafe to enforce on an individual basis? (People hurling themselves off pavements into the road to stay 2m from oncoming pedestrians and so stay within the law). Or maybe it is law that businesses take measures to maintain distancing among its clients, but aren't responsible if customers accidentally get closer than intended? Which is what lner is doing by saying try not to sit next to people you aren't travelling with, and ideally book a seat, but we're not going to stop you travelling if you haven't - and definitely not less than Scotrail is doing! I'm not being snarky - I honestly don't know what is just recommended and what is legally enforceable.

"It's not the dying, it's the lying that kills me."
Rachel Clarke's piece on the fake piety and two-faced insincerity of a Prime Minister who pretends he can banish Covid by force of will & size of ego alone. It's just soul-destroying"

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/20/if-johnson-didnt-believe-the-nhs-overwhelmed-stuff-why-was-he-clapping.

The difference between the two leaders is shown through how they treat others. For example, each member of the NHS getting around a millionth of a bravery medal , great (!) And the care badge that carers had to buy I believe ( that's not in the article though, I just remember thinking , 'Is this reality or satire?!').

I didn't think it's right to talk about a woman lacking understanding and empathy for homeschooling and working mothers when that woman wanted to be a mother but lost her baby through miscarriage. That might have been a comment on the other thread though, not they one.

@ResilienceWanker

I don't know... the Scotrail train I was on at the weekend had definitely been taking lessons from the London underground at rush hour (except for there only being one train an hour, not one every few minutes). It's all very well for them to say take personal responsibility, but if we'd followed FACTS (A= avoid crowded spaces, T = two metre distancing which isn't even the rule any more ) we wouldn't have been able to travel at any point. Because there would always be people willing to travel on the busy train if we'd decided to get off, even if it was empty when we got on. And actually, it was fine. Just like the old days. I'd rather have busy trains with some chance of a functioning rail service in the future than have them trundling around half empty haemmorhaging money.

In any case - what is "the law in Scotland"? I know face masks are, but has social distancing ever been law, as opposed to guidance? Surely that's impossible and unsafe to enforce on an individual basis? (People hurling themselves off pavements into the road to stay 2m from oncoming pedestrians and so stay within the law). Or maybe it is law that businesses take measures to maintain distancing among its clients, but aren't responsible if customers accidentally get closer than intended? Which is what lner is doing by saying try not to sit next to people you aren't travelling with, and ideally book a seat, but we're not going to stop you travelling if you haven't - and definitely not less than Scotrail is doing! I'm not being snarky - I honestly don't know what is just recommended and what is legally enforceable.

Remember the law re face masks wasn't put in place for police to be apprehending people but to encourage mask wearing. It was at 30 per cent and increased to 70 once made mandatory for those who can wear a mask.

Rachael Clarke is a mental Covidist though.

I despise Boris too, but have no time for her.

She's a doctor.

Reading that makes me feel a bit sick @StarryEyeSurprise

I was talking to my friend recently who I hadn't seen for a while. She worked on a Covid ward in the second wave and her and her husband and eldest child are all now struggling with Long Covid.

She was telling me how it had been on the ward, and just kept saying "We HAD to let people die, there weren't enough ventilators, we had no choice."

I don't think that'll ever leave her. That's the position healthcare professionals were put in, and we're wilfully doing the same for a THIRD time.

@ResilienceWanker answer is both are in law police are responsible for masks and social distancing which is one bit of legislation. Environmental health officers responsible for businesses ensuring places are covid compliant which includes distancing e.g between tables but they are not responsible for customers distance. That is the first bit which is the police.

Reality is no enforcement by the police though although businesses have had forced closures based on not being covid compliant.

@IncludeWomenInThePrequel your friends experience sounds awful but at this point there are no easy answers.
Keeping major lockdown restrictions in place for long periods of time results in mental health issues, suicides, other health conditions not being diagnosed, vulnerable DCs not being identified etc etc.

This time round we have the mitigating impact of vaccines. It may or may not be enough to prevent hospitalisations reaching critical levels but I'm not sure the alternative is that palatable either.

We could easily not have stuck to the 19th July date to further ease restrictions. It could have waited another month until more adults were fully vaccinated.

Nightclubs full of people looks like actual insanity to me.

Ok yes to be fair @IncludeWomenInThePrequel nightclubs do seem a bit enthusiastic- I thought they weren't opening in Scotland though ?
However this is from a perspective of someone who hasn't been to one for over 20 years.

The real dichotomy to me is opening everything up whilst retaining isolation for contacts. The two only work together if cases were low like they were last summer.

Both BG and SG want to have their cake and eat it . Look we've opened up but actually you'll have 10 days penance if you do anything. Bit like travel - yay you can go abroad if you're prepared to pay £100s in tests and rules change whilst you're there.

SG is being forced into lifting restrictions because of BG timeframe, what worries me with school return literally round the corner is that isolating as a policy will be retained and for the third year running DCs get compromised education.

Yes, it all feels very messy, and actually for the first time I feel like things are a bit out of control.

If we'd opened up like this with low case numbers, great, but we never had the numbers we needed, and went ahead anyway. I know hospital admissions and deaths are comparatively low, but my main concern is the petri dish this country has been turned into for variants.

Night clubs aren't open in Scotland for a good while yet.
The test events conducted in England from music festivals to conferences to nightclubs had something like 13 positive cases out of 50,000 attendees.......

It's also not the same as you just rock up on a night out to them. The businesses in England are being careful they want to remain open having been shut for a while so the majority require proof of negative test or double vaccination.

Friend had the same for attending the theatre in London

Thanks scottishskifun - yes found them!

It seems that the "required distance" of 1m only applies to "a person who is responsible for a place of worship, carrying on a business or providing a service in a Level 0 area" rather than the public themselves, and that person only has to put in measures to ensure that distancing "as far as reasonably practicable" , including only allowing the number of people on/in to permit that. So I suppose LNER and Scotrail should be limiting people boarding their trains, even if they have a valid ticket, so they can each be 1m apart. Though if that would work with their other obligations (including keeping their staff safe!) and so be reasonably practicable, I don't know. It must be a nightmare for eg hospitality businesses who have the EHO obligations too, as well as awkward customers.

I suppose the police could get involved for breaches of social distancing when there were limits on gatherings (and I suppose there still are, if you have a house party with more than 8 people) but presumably not 2 people standing closer than 1m apart! Though that doesn't seem to be against the law anyway.

Re starrys point - yes, but I suppose that applies to anything! If you can't persuade people that something is a good idea to do/ not do purely through asking/ persuading them, then you can make it law, as people are less willing to break the law generally. Kind of using a stick if the carrot hasn't worked! Because there is a risk they could be fined, closed down, or even spoken to by the police about it - even if unlikely - which many people want to avoid (though as with all these things, the risk is probably greater if you are of certain demographics, or display certain behaviours than others). So I don't think it's purely "just a way of encouraging a certain behaviour" any more than any other law is!

@ResilienceWanker yep that's what the police used it for the limits in numbers mostly for breaking up house parties.

Yes it's difficult for businesses their risk assessments are bonkers now. EHOs
assist the businesses but it depends on the council to what set up they have. Our LA is a dedicated covid response EHO team (it's DH job hence I know way too much about it).

ONS reporting that 92% of adults in the UK have COVID antibodies now (Scotland right up in there now, at 89%) 😀. The proportion of children (defined as under 16s) is unknown, but given there has been free circulation of virus around schools I'd imagine a fair chunk also have some immunity.

What amazes me about this is that even with such amazing levels of population immunity, the virus is still able to spread pretty freely (although we are actively hunting for it, and the vast majority of these 'cases' wouldn't catch anyone's attention if it were any other virus). I would interpret this as meaning that it's probably not going to be possible to ever really control virus spread as there are clearly lots of people with prior immunity catching it (although you would expect more mildly). Rather, all we can hope for is people to have enough prior immunity from vaccination or infection to mitigate the harms. I think it supports getting infections out the way in the summer quite honestly, when people and the health service are a bit more resilient generally. Even more so if the vaccination level is plateauing and children are off the table.

Exactly! The regulations say businesses have to "have regard to the SG guidance" for their industry/sector, and we all know how internally consistent and easy to navigate that is!

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us so how can the continued infection rates be so high with such a huge percentage of antibodies?
Should we hopefully see numbers fall rapidly then over the next few weeks?
That would be fantastic I know it's the gamble but I'd not seen the percentage with antibodies before.

@rookiemere I would interpret it as meaning that a huge proportion of the population have some immunity, but that in a lot of cases this is not enough to prevent infection entirely. We're seeing this with more and more doubly vaccinated people testing positive now. You would expect that the disease gets a lot milder with prior immunity though. This is how it works with all other viruses too, the more exposures you have the more immunity you build up and the milder the disease, but it's still possible to be reinfected if the virus mutates a bit or your immunity wanes. It's actually completely normal with a highly mutable virus, but I think the problem is certain quarters have led us to expect 'sterilising immunity' where you can stop infection spread altogether. That doesn't look like it will be realistic now.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

ONS reporting that 92% of adults in the UK have COVID antibodies now (Scotland right up in there now, at 89%) 😀. The proportion of children (defined as under 16s) is unknown, but given there has been free circulation of virus around schools I'd imagine a fair chunk also have some immunity.

What amazes me about this is that even with such amazing levels of population immunity, the virus is still able to spread pretty freely (although we are actively hunting for it, and the vast majority of these 'cases' wouldn't catch anyone's attention if it were any other virus). I would interpret this as meaning that it's probably not going to be possible to ever really control virus spread as there are clearly lots of people with prior immunity catching it (although you would expect more mildly). Rather, all we can hope for is people to have enough prior immunity from vaccination or infection to mitigate the harms. I think it supports getting infections out the way in the summer quite honestly, when people and the health service are a bit more resilient generally. Even more so if the vaccination level is plateauing and children are off the table.

That's really interesting! I assume the antibodies are effective at preventing severe disease, though not preventing "cases" totally. Possibly antibodies against one variant aren't quite as effective at seeing off the virus of another variant, though still do a pretty good job - just not enough to get total herd immunity? I know people comparing it to a cold get jumped on, and obviously, even with antibodies it can be more serious than a cold for some people. But I do think it may be moving that way, with our bodies getting better at seeing it off without either becoming too ill, or overreacting in a long coviddy way, as we get more infections, more vaccinations and so on over the course of our lives?