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Feel depressed about the future

547 replies

Hobnob39 · 08/05/2021 23:15

The election results have made me feel really bluuuuerrgh.
I HATED the divisiveness of indyref1, I don't want another referendum. I want our government to do a better day job, but independence is going to be the focus until it happens now isn't it? I don't want independence for the same reasons I didn't want Brexit - I feel we shouldn't be dividing ourselves off into ever smaller parochial wee groups who all think we are somehow better than everyone else. It's enough to make me want to move... my DH is English and he wants to, but I have resisted, but it's getting harder to explain why. The only problem I have though is that I see the results in England and feel they as bad - I don't understand why people who are shafted by the Tory party are the ones voting for them! Sad I just do know where I belong now. It feels to me that Scotland is stuck with SNP and England stuck with Tory, and I'm adrift as I don't feel either represent me. Anyone else?

OP posts:
Movisoul · 09/05/2021 21:19

All those so blasé about the economics - why would you be so sure you want independence without actually seeing the case for it first? Nationalism in itself is pretty nasty and small-minded. People in Scotland have cultural and family ties with the rest of the UK - we aren't "other". We have a fantastic standard of living in the UK compared to lots of the world (not all the world but relatively speaking, we are doing brilliantly in quality of life) as well as compared to past generations. Why would we upset that? It's not going to be any better than the status quo - not the land of milk and honey and certain to be pretty painful with huge job losses and economic upset. But loads of people are just blindly nationalistic. Yet they detest those in their own country who disagree with them, so it's not a big united country is it?! What is the point?

Iwouldratherbesailing · 09/05/2021 21:19

I worked in a fund administration firm in the last referendum. They set up an English operation specifically to mitigate the risks of Scexit, as their clients needed the security of administration overseen by the FCA and they needed to be able to shift jobs south. Established institutions such as the FCA carry with them a level of trust. It is hard to set up such institutions from scratch.

StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:20

[quote Scottishskifun]@StarryEyeSurprise it's whole departments jobs from well engineering, safety and environmental management all related to oil and gas - HSE offshore inspection unit, the Oil and Gas Authority and offshore petroleum regulator for environment and decommissioning all based in Aberdeen but all cover whole of UK. These are highly skilled and professional jobs not easily replaceable![/quote]
Great 👍. And why would they need to move to England in an indy Scotland? If that's what you're saying - I may have picked you up wrong.

Iwouldratherbesailing · 09/05/2021 21:21

Its all of those 'Tory scum out' people that I think are terrible. Their hatred is so unashamed. Do they not want a tourist industry?

SixesAndEights · 09/05/2021 21:22

@Dinosauratemydaffodils

I'm not particularly opposed to independence but due to my childhood, I crave stability for my children and I'm terrified that we might end up in a situation where only 50.5 percent of a 60 (or similar) percent turnout vote yes.

Obviously that might be me being unfair but given the negative impact sectarianism has had on my family and that of dh's, I'm not sure I am.

Hopefully though the campaign will focus on convincing no voters and trying to pull the country together, rather than going down diversive lines.

I don't think you need worry on the issue of turnout. It was around 85% last time, and there's no reason it wouldn't be similar next time given the important constitutional nature of the question. People will vote.
Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 21:24

@StarryEyeSurprise I don't believe you answered the QE question so here it is.

given the critical importance quantitative easing (QE) has played in financing Covid-19 deficit spending, what are the implications of taking Scotland out of a QE-financed economy?

StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:29

[quote Graffitiqueen]@StarryEyeSurprise I don't believe you answered the QE question so here it is.

given the critical importance quantitative easing (QE) has played in financing Covid-19 deficit spending, what are the implications of taking Scotland out of a QE-financed economy?[/quote]
I did actually.

Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 21:29

Er no you didn't.

Scottishskifun · 09/05/2021 21:30

@StarryEyeSurprise because they are UK govt employees and the industry isn't just based in Scotland.... The SG cannot just say yep we will have these experts that you have trained up nor can they quickly replace them.
There is also dept in Glasgow the international affairs again UK civil service isn't just going to go yep sure you have our whole dept...... They will move the dept best case scenario is a split for some of them but SG would need to match the terms they are on. The OGA professionals get paid more then MPs for some of them!

Hobnob39 · 09/05/2021 21:40

The arguments on this thread with people accusing each other of thinking they are better than others etc illustrate my point entirely.
Someone earlier made an assumption saying that those who voted no to Scottish independence probably voted for Brexit - I don't understand that assumption at all as every single person I know who voted No, also wanted to stay in the EU as they are so many parallels.

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that in other countries that have had referendum to be independent in modern times, the vast majority have been OVERWHELMINGLY for it (around 90%+) If I thought I was in the tiny minority against it, I'd not be so worried about the hard times ahead as I don't doubt that after a decade or so Scotland would be fine if everyone who lived here felt it was for the best. However, the reality is that we are split right down the middle and the massive upheaval just won't work with half the country really wishing it wasn't happening.
It's for this reason (and I know that Nats will hate this so I'm probably opening a can of worms here!) that I don't think the results of a referendum should change the status quo on something so difficult to reverse unless it's a much bigger majority than 0.1%. I obviously don't know, but I do feel I would say the same if we were an already independent country and voting on whether to become part of the UK. Changing something so profound should be something you wholeheartedly want to do.

I just find the fact that it's this thing looming over everything so depressing. Sad

OP posts:
StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:41

And QE isn't w/o its negatives. There are other ways to help a distressed economy which don't overly benefit the rich. We should follow Australia's example, not the BoE's. I can try and find an article if people are interested.

Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 21:44

@StarryEyeSurprise

And QE isn't w/o its negatives. There are other ways to help a distressed economy which don't overly benefit the rich. We should follow Australia's example, not the BoE's. I can try and find an article if people are interested.
Still not answering the question...
StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:45

Incase it's of any interest to anyone - yes it's vital we have our own currency ASAP but this explains some better approaches (than 'old school QE') that an Indy Scotland should implement.

Quantitative Easing (QE) is the buying of bonds by the Central Bank: it allows the interest rate on those bonds to drop and, theoretically, lower interest rates keep more cash in households’ pockets; and it empowers Banks to purchase assets from banks, pension funds and other investors, freeing cash for them to acquire other investments which will give them a higher return than the bonds they had.

And this is what the Bank of England and other central banks did from 2008 onwards – thanks to having their own currency, created with a few taps on the Bank keyboard. They lowered interest rates giving borrowers some relief in areas like their mortgages and combined this with buying assets from distressed banks that were on the verge of collapse. (After having recapitalised them with billions of pounds of taxpayer money.) The banks suddenly had tens of billions to spend which was the plan: sure enough, they spent it.

HSBC chief economist, Stephen King, after the dust had settled, commented that QE had ‘unfortunate distributional consequences’. It did. All of them obvious and foreseeable. By purchasing distressed assets, and taking low yield bonds from them, investors now had money to burn. Searching for higher returns and assets that would inflate, they plunged money into the stock market, housing, commodities, fine art, wine and more. The effect was the inflation of prices in these markets benefiting the investors and another class of people: the already wealthy.

Manifestly unfair, many would claim. The flawed theory was that the wealthy would acquire shares and bonds in companies, allowing them to spend, hire people and boost the economy. It worked to a certain extent. Some people saw the stock market boom and felt confident enough to spend money, some companies expanded, but a lot of money went into assets that would create little employment, such as houses, and a sizable amount of money went abroad where returns were larger, not benefitting struggling workers here. Nor did re-capitalised banks lend as much as they could have which saw many companies go to the wall.

In terms of the UK, the recession was not as deep as it might have been, yet it still did not prevent almost ten years of Austerity and a greater dislocation between economic groups in society than even under Thatcherism.

It could have all been so different. In 2008, as now, the economic challenge was two-fold: people were in debt that they did not have the money to service and banks held debt that they could not get repaid. Really, two sides of the same coin. The government’s solution then was dependent on whether the billions at the top of the champagne-finance pyramid trickled down to their glass at the bottom.

However, if the Bank of England had treated every taxpayer as ‘distressed’, they could have, as the Australian government did through tax refunds, issued a set amount directly into the bank accounts of ordinary people. This policy directed money to the economic actors that needed it ‘on the ground’. Borrowers could reduce debt, banks’ bad loans would transform into good loans or be repaid, and spending would return to the economy. To use an analogy, instead of pouring a massive bucket of water into the middle of the field hoping it waters the field, distributing money to individuals in all sectors of the economy is like using an irrigation system to ensure all areas of the field are properly quenched.

Even the most selfish and avaricious financier would have to admit that increased spending and recapitalisation of the banks by means of people’s debt being relieved, by themselves, would have benefitted them too. Therefore, for all the people that slowly descended into poverty, for all the businesses that slowly ground to a halt, for all the families that broke down under the stress of straitened circumstances, the decision to deny them anything but pot luck and to enrich the already prosperous is a needless and wanton tragedy.

It is never too late to make matters better. Scotland, independent with its own currency, can use ‘QE for The People’ in two different forms: it can be injected into people’s pockets to boost short term spending (and relieve their debts, if they have any) and it can be used as a jobs creation method: investing in infrastructure, training and new technologies (putting more money into local economies and benefiting business).

A Scottish currency is the fulcrum of this policy, alongside an understanding that money put into the foundation of the economy bails out everyone.

StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:49

Oh and re reserves - thanks Lex, was just checking with WouldBeGood - this is done automatically as the new currency will not be handed out for free. Every new note issued has to be bought with sterling handed in to the equivalent amount. The currency actually automatically starts with 100% reserves.

Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 21:50

www.isp.scot/quantitive-easing-for-the-people/

Calyx72 · 09/05/2021 21:51

The constitutional question IS looming over everything and it's the reason Scotland can't have proper politics.

Scotland should just do it now, go independent. It's going to happen anyway. The sooner it's done, the sooner Scotland can get on with governing itself for Scotland's own good. Rather than being asset stripped and made to fight within itself.

Westminster has a lot to answer for. McCrone report and so on and on. And it tried to tell every other country it annexed that they couldn't do without Westminster rule. They all managed fine after independence (surprise).

I don't like the SNP's policies or actions these days but I had to vote SNP1 because I want an independent Scotland. I wouldn't vote for them after independence.

Just rip the plaster off. No-one will be 'othered'. We will need all the people we can get and are quite happy with English, Welsh, Irish or anyone else who wants to come and live and work here.

Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 21:51

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StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:51

Oh , I also forgot to mention that 8 per cent of BoE reserves are ours .

Iwouldratherbesailing · 09/05/2021 21:53

I would be ‘othered’. I’m British. I have faith that independence is not inevitable. I do think the vote ought to be ASAP though. We are in limbo as a country until it is resolved.

StarryEyeSurprise · 09/05/2021 21:54

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Calyx72 · 09/05/2021 21:59

@Iwouldratherbesailing

I would be ‘othered’. I’m British. I have faith that independence is not inevitable. I do think the vote ought to be ASAP though. We are in limbo as a country until it is resolved.
I wouldn't 'other' you. You might do it to yourself but that's not my problem Hmm
Chasingamy · 09/05/2021 22:05

Depends what you mean by ASAP. I think we need to know the plan a few years in advance so people who don’t want to go through it again and run the risk have chance to leave first. Surely that’s fair. Let’s face it though if there’s another one and the result is to stay in the UK there will just be a push for Indyref3. Favours the ‘leave’ side really which is the same as Brexit. No referendum to rejoin the EU whereas if Remain had won you can bet Farage et al would still be campaigning for another shot at it. I think Scotland will stay in this limbo until they leave. Even if they get 50.1% I’m sure there will be no second chance.

Iwouldratherbesailing · 09/05/2021 22:16

I would rather sit it out and hope independence is rejected. Too much of an upheaval otherwise. If there is talk of controls being introduced to stop capital flight on the day of a yes vote though I would have to have a rethink. I don’t think the SG can introduce such controls before Indy is complete though.

Movisoul · 09/05/2021 22:19

We've already rejected it! Not sure why we have to do it again!

Graffitiqueen · 09/05/2021 22:22

SIOB! Ooh starry thought it was only us nasty no voters that insulted people?!?!

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