Feel depressed about the future

[Hobnob39]

The election results have made me feel really bluuuuerrgh.
I HATED the divisiveness of indyref1, I don't want another referendum. I want our government to do a better day job, but independence is going to be the focus until it happens now isn't it? I don't want independence for the same reasons I didn't want Brexit - I feel we shouldn't be dividing ourselves off into ever smaller parochial wee groups who all think we are somehow better than everyone else. It's enough to make me want to move... my DH is English and he wants to, but I have resisted, but it's getting harder to explain why. The only problem I have though is that I see the results in England and feel they as bad - I don't understand why people who are shafted by the Tory party are the ones voting for them! I just do know where I belong now. It feels to me that Scotland is stuck with SNP and England stuck with Tory, and I'm adrift as I don't feel either represent me. Anyone else?

@wouldbegood We would go with the currency option that would work best for us, as every other country that has become independent does. The money would be generated and spent in a similar way to other independent countries - your know, making and selling things, taxes, borrowing, all that normal stuff. We have exports, we have industries. We have a whisky industry that many countries would love to have. Why do unionists assume that Scotland is poor? We aren't, and we wouldn't be.

It is difficult to provide the clarity you are demanding when most of the information about our finances is twisted in among Westminster's figures and we are only provided with many 'estimates'. It would be good to see Scotland's finances set out separately.

@Nyx I've always wondered this too. I understand the cost implications of setting up an independent country but aside from that, the actual idea of being an independent country is surely normal? Being a country ruled by another is less normal surely? The world is full of independent countries...normal, no?

Completely normal. Many countries smaller than us and with less than us manage it just fine.

@Nyx that just avoids the question.

Currency is crucial for EU membership. We’d need a central bank and control of our currency. We’d need to meet the EU requirements economically. None of this would be possible if we keep the pound.

If we create a currency it would cost billions and billions. How would this be done?

If it’s all so normal, why can’t anyone tell us how it’s going to look and how it will be funded?

@duvetdrama yes, it should go without saying!

Also, yes of course there will be cost implications of becoming independent again, but people forget that we wouldn't be starting from scratch. All the nuts and bolts that are needed - all of the agencies and embassies, a foreign office, MoD - these are all UK institutions, agencies and services, not English - Scotland pays for these pro rata on an equal level with England, N Ireland and Wales. We are not given the use of them for free. When you think about it like this, we are already paying a lot of the costs of running a country now, whether the costs of running devolved services or contributions to Westminster responsibilities.
Also currently these are all based in London and therefore to access employment in any of them requires living in London. Independence would provide a raft of highly paid quality employment, the tax revenue paid by these staff would benefit the Scottish economy, and the brightest and best in our society would no longer need to leave Scotland in order to fulfil their potential.
People rarely mention the economic benefits to Scotland going independent - our share in all of the UK assets which would need to be negotiated and agreed. The fact that Scotland would no longer have to subsidise the rest of the UK's excesses, like HS2, Trident, new airport runways in the South of England, etc.

@Nyx

Scotland is a small/ medium size country with plenty going for it. We have industries, exports, renewables, universities, and quite frankly we have more resources of our own than many small to medium sized countries who are currently independent and doing pretty well.

Why on earth WOULDN'T Scotland manage as an independent country? When that is the norm? If it's that bloody hard to manage as an independent country, why aren't there more countries just dying to be dominated and out-voted in everything by Westminster?

What would cause an independent Scotland to fail?

There is UK debt to be shared out. There are also UK assets to be shared out. We could charge an extortionate rent for the filthy nukes we have to have parked in our waters, at least until they could be removed.

Seriously. Independence is normal.

Honestly I'm embarrassed for you that you even posted this. It's the most naive simplistic non argument I've ever heard.

It's like saying to the bank manager when asking for a mortgage that other people manage mortgages without dealing with the specifics of how you would actually be able to afford it.

Nobody is saying Scotland couldn't be independent, just that we'd have to make some very tough choices to continue with the standard of living we have now.

I know some intelligent yes voters. Every one of them admits that it would be an economic shit show, but they think it would be worth it for emotional reasons. They feel Scottish. It’s the yes voters that don’t realise it will be an economic shit show that scare me.

Taxes
Tourism
Exports
Borrowing

Pretty much the same as every other country in the world. Can you explain how they manage it and we won't?

As has been pointed out to you, you are expecting details that are yet to be ironed out. There are a number of ways it can be done and that will be part of the negotiations.

Here's how some other new countries set up currency:

www.believeinscotland.org/category/currency/

@Iwouldratherbesailing

I know some intelligent yes voters. Every one of them admits that it would be an economic shit show, but they think it would be worth it for emotional reasons. They feel Scottish. It’s the yes voters that don’t realise it will be an economic shit show that scare me.

I'm stunned that that would be the case. I know not one person voting for that reason. I

@wouldbegood Because we don't have a crystal ball and we don't have full access to all of the books currently.

It’s mainly to do with trust. That’s the economic problem Scotland would have. They have a massive debt, they’ve got used to living off the Barnett formula that gives them £15b extra a year which has now been withdrawn, and no one trusts Scotland to make debt repayments. The interest rate their debt will be charged at will be astronomical, they’ll rely on raising taxes and people will leave because of that, exaggerated the problem.

Why does the Barnett formula give Scotland an 'extra' 15bn a year? Has this ever been explained? I can find no reason for it? What is the motivation for UK gov to do this?

@graffitiqueen here we go with the insults. Seriously if you want to extrapolate how an independent Scotland could be, look at Denmark. They are similar to is in size, attitudes, and in fact don't have oil or gas as we have - they have a better standard of living than we currently do even with WM's largesse (lol).

You tell me then, what would cause an independent Scotland to fail? Why wouldn't we be successful?

Add to this uk public sector jobs going south, a good deal of banking jobs that rely on being backed by the FCA heading south too (think fund administration). Disasterous. Nicola knows it, doesn’t want to admit it. Wants the gullible fools to vote yes, fulfil her dreams and she’ll walk away from the destruction happy because of braveheart style shit.

As someone who moved from Scotland to England a couple of years ago, I am far happier in England. Things that are glaringly obvious when I first moved was how much better run the council is. Roads are better, street lights, libraries and other mundane day to day things are better. I don't mind paying for prescriptions, I think means tested is a better system.

Brexit hasn't changed anything much in my local town apart from some prices going up slightly. I'm in the north under a Labour council for what it's worth. Never had an issue with being different for not being from the UK, something that happened often in Scotland sadly.

Well, no Indy supporter on this thread appears to have the slightest grasp of economics which isn’t encouraging.

Beyond “other countries do it” and “we are rich/oil/whisky” and “it will all be ok” we have been offered nothing.

[quote Nyx]@graffitiqueen here we go with the insults. Seriously if you want to extrapolate how an independent Scotland could be, look at Denmark. They are similar to is in size, attitudes, and in fact don't have oil or gas as we have - they have a better standard of living than we currently do even with WM's largesse (lol).

You tell me then, what would cause an independent Scotland to fail? Why wouldn't we be successful? [/quote]
Like I said your argument is equivalent to saying, "my friend has a £1m mortgage" as justification as how you could afford one when asking the bank for a mortgage.

[quote Nyx]@graffitiqueen here we go with the insults. Seriously if you want to extrapolate how an independent Scotland could be, look at Denmark. They are similar to is in size, attitudes, and in fact don't have oil or gas as we have - they have a better standard of living than we currently do even with WM's largesse (lol).

You tell me then, what would cause an independent Scotland to fail? Why wouldn't we be successful? [/quote]
You know what it means when folk turn to insults!

🤷🏻‍♀️

Yes voters don’t care about the cost and don’t seem to understand that Scotland as a country will not be able to afford the socialist nirvana that they want. It’s about freedom and feeling rather than finances . Same rationale as the brexiteers that they look their nose down at. It’s absolute idiocy to put barriers between a country and their biggest trading partner of which England is. That’s even ignoring how much more intertwined we are financially, culturally and legislatively than Britain ever was to Europe. It’s like brexit on steroids and will cripple the Scottish economy and the public services which depend on it. Some people think that’s a price worth paying for “freedom”. It’s a perfectly valid reasonable position to consider these people absolute idiots.

@Graffitiqueen no it isn't. Not even close. If you are going to dish out the insults at least attempt to come up with a decent analogy.

[quote forfucksakenett]@Graffitiqueen no it isn't. Not even close. If you are going to dish out the insults at least attempt to come up with a decent analogy. [/quote]
Who did I insult? I said the argument was naive and simplistic and it is. Not the poster.

@Graffitiqueen As for the standard of living we have now? Worst pension in the developed world? Very aspirational.

The analogy of the mortgage broker doesn't work, I'm afraid. The fact is that we do have industries and resources, and that they are not puny - compared to similar countries we stack up pretty well. Do you disagree with this?

Saying to someone that you are embarrassed for them because of what they posted is pretty insulting.