Alba tanks it, SNP hold, Willie and Jackie romp home

[AnnieHooo]

Randomising going on. Labour bombed it. I was politically adrift yesterday but now I'm sunk.

@StarryEyeSurprise

I really don't understand why more unionists vote Tory than Labour. Never mind everything else they've done, the Tories are s*it opposition and that's never good.

It's quite simple, the huge shift of 2015 when voters abandoned the Labour Party en masse and went over to the SNP. Most SNP voters are former Labour voters. Labour lost a massive chunk of their core vote, the Tories didn‘t.

What about their consent to have the ability to travel and work freely in Scotland potentially taken away from them?

I don't remember the Italians and Germans being asked if they consented to their right to live in the UK being taken away after Brexit.

Shit opposition is another reason people vote SNP

Not always because of independence

So even if Nic gets her referendum, she could lose again

Will she try a third time, a fourth, a fifth? or will the supporters finally get fed up with her?

Oh come on, this is how the system works. I never hear after a general election that that the winners only got 36% or 43% of the vote and therefore don't have a mandate to do anything.
SNP + Green = 72 seats. Scottish Parliament PR was set up for exactly this type of arrangement where parties work together on matters they want to pursue

Right but if there was an indyref2, it's clear the won't win it. Nicola sturgeon will know that. I say this as an indy supporter.
We will waste more time and money focusing on something that's not going to happen.

So even if Nic gets her referendum, she could lose again

Will lose, not could. The numbers do not add up in favour of it.

She will waste time and money so as to keep her voters happy but as PP said, she must know the odds are not in her favour.

The referendum was binary and they've already lost.

@Horehound

So even if Nic gets her referendum, she could lose again

Will lose, not could. The numbers do not add up in favour of it.

I was a clear 'No' last time, but open to being a 'Yes' this time, provided tough questions are addressed head-on without gaslighting.

I agree with you: she'd lose. And I think she's smart and knows that.

I think Salmond screwed things up massively in Indy1 by blatantly turning it into 'identity politics' - you're either a brave, proud loyal Scot who has rights to the flag or you're 'feart', into 'Project Fear', and talking Scotland down and loyal to the Union.

I don't know if Yes voters, who enjoyed the heady carnival of Indy1, will ever fully understand how unfair and how deeply painful that was, and how damaging. Lots of people won't be able to come back from that.

So Sturgeon has a MASSIVE task. It's not just about, answers to questions'. She somehow has to win back emotional trust: 'We identified you as a 'yoon' who has no loyalty to Scotland, but we've changed our minds now ...' isn't going to cut it.

The thing about the Tories ... championing the 'UK (which includes Scotland)', gives people who feel they were stripped of their identity, a safe place to be. They've learned that being Scottish is tenuous and conditional. (Nevertheless I loathe the Tories and will never vote for them).

I honestly don't know how the Yes movement can undo this.

Smellycats, great post. That was exactly how I felt last time round. Not a ‘proper’ Scot if you don’t want independence.

I don't know if Yes voters, who enjoyed the heady carnival of Indy1, will ever fully understand how unfair and how deeply painful that was, and how damaging. Lots of people won't be able to come back from that.

You surely must realise that there's a flip side to this. I don't know if No voters will ever fully understand how utterly miserable it is to be part of a union that is damaging, demoralising and quite frankly an absolute joke. Imagine looking down there and thinking yes that's what we want tethered to. Elitism, cronyism, a government we never vote for. That's also painful. Two sides to every story.

great post SmelllyCats.

I'll never forget pulling up at traffic lights,, simply waiting for the lights to change, and being surrounded by Nats trying to shove leaflets into my windscreen wipers and through the open window. My DD was screaming in fear.

I'll never forget that long term friends no longer talk to us because we didn't vote yes

I'll never forget the arrogant assumption that everyone must be voting indyref and the almost funny shock that we didn't.

And the saltire - being unable to use it because of the assumption it made you a yes voter.

The inability to be both a proud Scot and a proud Brit

My expat sister (who still has the right to vote and a British passport) being told she's no longer Scottish and doesn't have a say any more, even though she could always decide to return here and bring her kids here too (her plan is for them to study here when older)

My DD who is now 13 having to be taught to say "I don't know" when asked by her friends how her parents vote and having to say "I'm too young to vote" when asked who she herself would support. (I don't actually know who she would support but I'm not allowing her to feel intimidated into it).

@forfucksakenett

I don't know if Yes voters, who enjoyed the heady carnival of Indy1, will ever fully understand how unfair and how deeply painful that was, and how damaging. Lots of people won't be able to come back from that.

You surely must realise that there's a flip side to this. I don't know if No voters will ever fully understand how utterly miserable it is to be part of a union that is damaging, demoralising and quite frankly an absolute joke. Imagine looking down there and thinking yes that's what we want tethered to. Elitism, cronyism, a government we never vote for. That's also painful. Two sides to every story.

I think you're wrong. The state of politics at the moment sickens me and pretty much everyone I know. Don't think for a second that because people voted 'No' that they somehow are more comfortable or like the current state of play more than Yes voters.

In fact, I'd gently point out that, by your inference, you've implicitly done it again - 'othered' some Scottish people.

Hmmm. And I would gently point out that for some reason it's okay for you to other me and other yes voters but not okay to be on the receiving end.

You and everyone you know can't be translated as a statement of fact about Scottish politics or else the result would have been different surely? What a strange thing to say.

In fact @forfucksakenett, to try and express this better, no one I know WANTS to be there'd to the shitshow that is Boris politics.

Rather than blaming voters, you need to appreciate that the Yes movement failed to present a compelling case that independence would be any better. And that's seriously damning.

Until the Yes movement looks critically at where it went wrong, and addresses that, it's not going to make progress.

For some people, a leap of faith and a flag in their hand is enough to make the jump. Others need more certainty.

Brexit, as far as I am concerned, was also about faith and flags. I didn't vote for that either. That doesn't mean I'm more loyal to the continent than I am these islands.

Well @smellycats I agree with you that in 2014 they didn't make a compelling enough case but things have now changed.

It's interesting that no one in your opinion wants to be involved with the shit show that is Boris's politics given the number of people on this thread who were happily voting Tory. Lots of people in Scotland must love his style of politicking given that the Tories are the biggest competition to the SNP are they not and DR is happy to be the Scottish regional branch under Mr Johnson?

@forfucksakenett

Hmmm. And I would gently point out that for some reason it's okay for you to other me and other yes voters but not okay to be on the receiving end.

You and everyone you know can't be translated as a statement of fact about Scottish politics or else the result would have been different surely? What a strange thing to say.

The inconvenient point though, is in order to appeal to those who voted 'No' the last time, you need to understand why and how to persuade them to vote yes.

It isn't about how 'Yes' voters feel, and whether they think No voters are being fair or not. Your vote is in the bag. The No vote isn't, and it is required.

It's about pragmatism and being prepared to step outside the carnival and acknowledge the alternative experience.

Absolutely but that's not my job. I'll leave that to the campaign. My vote, pending up to date financial analysis, is as you say in the bag.

And what if the strong Tory vote on a Scotland. Doesn't exactly suggest the repulsion on Boris style politics does it? A tacit condoning of it is it not?

@forfucksakenett

Well *@smellycats* I agree with you that in 2014 they didn't make a compelling enough case but things have now changed.

It's interesting that no one in your opinion wants to be involved with the shit show that is Boris's politics given the number of people on this thread who were happily voting Tory. Lots of people in Scotland must love his style of politicking given that the Tories are the biggest competition to the SNP are they not and DR is happy to be the Scottish regional branch under Mr Johnson?

You are so wrong. Again. You are inadvertently illustrating why the Yes movement is in trouble.

The truth is, some people DO vote Tory because they support them. That's their right, and it should be respected.

Some people vote Tory because they're Unionists. After a 300 year 'Union' agreement, the fact that Scotland has Unionists in it is unsurprising and should also be respected.

But there aren't many of them. Historically, they achieved one seat.

I think the majority of Tory voters in Scotland vote Tory strategically. Which means they UNHAPPILY - not happily - vote Tory. And again, that puts the onus back on the Yes movement to ask what has happened in Scotland to almost immediately give the Tories a boost from a single seat at Holyrood to being the second largest party.

Because, frankly, THAT was the natural Tory state. No one voted for them before, except the unionists and Tory voters.

What is it that makes something previously so unpalatable, now feel like the only option?

And to then turn to people who despise the Tories but feel they have to vote for them anyway, and tell them they are typical Tory supporters.

Oh dear. Not a way to win them over.

Why don't they vote Labour then?

It's very simple. There are options other than Tory even if you want to vote tactically. If there aren't in your specific area then it means that Tories, for whatever reason, have a bit of a stronghold there.

All of this does nothing to negate the fact that many people support the shit show that is the Tory party.

The fact that I'm somehow supposed to have sympathy for them and that they are being made to do so by the big bad SNP is quite frankly laughable.

Labour are on the fence and that's why I couldn't give them both my votes. I wanted JB as my MSP but I also have concerns about how committed Labour really are to the union.

Labour are struggling because their supporters have drifted away to either SNP or Tory.

I don't like Nicola Sturgeon but I think she was right to push Anas to pick a side. Whether that side will be the right choice in terms of winning votes in future - who knows.

Well @smellycats I agree with you that in 2014 they didn't make a compelling enough case but things have now changed.

Actually, it's far worse for the Yes movement.

If you accept that people voted No because they had questions that weren't answered, then it's so much worse now. I say this sadly, because I'd love to rid us to be rid of the Tory shitshow and Brexit.

For example:

2014

Question: - 'If we are out of the EU and the UK is in, what impact that will that have on the border and trade between Scotland and RUK?

Answer: - "Wheesht! It's absurd to suggest there'll be an issue. There's been no border for centuries and that will continue. Project Fear!!"

Voters: Hmmm. That doesn't seem logical. I'm not going to risk it. It's a 'No' vote. [Plus, emotionally feeling pissed off at being characterised as irrational and fearful for asking a perfectly reasonable question].

2024 or whenever

Similar question, this time prefaced with the words, 'Looking at the impact on NI after Brexit ....'

Answer: - ? To be determined. But now bloody difficult to address and certainly cannot be swept away as if it's irrational or fear driven.

I could go on and on, but surely you get the gist.

No @smellycats I don't get the gist tbh. You don't have a crystal ball and can't possibly know what the SNP will reply on answer to voter questions in 2024.

You are correct however that post brexit voters will be more informed and have tricky questions that will need answered. If they don't answer them they won't get the votes. Simple.

It doesn't matter what your motivations for voting a party are.

A vote for the tories is support for the tories.

Why don't they vote Labour then?

I do vote Labour. But Labour are not as staunchly pro-union (or, put it more accurately - anti-referendum) as the Tories.

For some, it's not just about not wanting Independence, it's also about avoiding the utterly SHIT experience of another referendum where they are made to feel like garbage and as if they aren't proper Scots.

I loathe the Tories enough to feel I'd rather go through another referendum - as awful as it was - than ever vote for them.

But I totally understand why some may feel voting Tory is horrendous, but the referendum experience was even worse.

I've been voting for more than 35 years, and voted tory for the first time in my life on Thursday. I've always been left of centre, but where I live (not borders) is predominantly agricultural, and the seats have always been Tory or SNP in my memory. So while I've never not voted, I've pretty much always known my vote was wasted. Voting Tory was tactical, nothing more.

You don't have a crystal ball and can't possibly know what the SNP will reply on answer to voter questions in 2024.

Of course I don't. Which is why I used a question mark and the words 'To be determined'.

BUT - I do understand that the law is the law. I know that EU red lines are red lines. I know that the majority of our trade and economic security is with the UK, not Europe. Etc.

These are not abstract concepts. They're unmovable obstacles. And they are very very difficult to answer honestly, without also having to face the risks and problems an independent Scotland wound face.

I hope with all my heart those questions will be answered differently a second time around. But I suspect that if they are, some voters, like me, might be persuaded to take a calculated measured risk and vote Yes. But previous 'Yes' voters, might suddenly realise it isn't going to be simply wonderful, and switch to 'No'.

I do actually know a few Yes voters who have changed their minds because Brexit has been a wake-up call.