Alba tanks it, SNP hold, Willie and Jackie romp home

[AnnieHooo]

Randomising going on. Labour bombed it. I was politically adrift yesterday but now I'm sunk.

@Quincie

They sure as hell should be allowed to have a say in the way their country is run. Yes, but at 16 they probably haven't had DCs, paid a mortgage, run a home even. They are going to follow their heart rather than their head.

Having DCs isn't the be all and end all. Im 33 and don't have kids, maybe I'm too young to vote too? Many people will never pay a mortgage. Utter tripe.

@ResilienceWanker

But younger voters voted no in 2014. It wasn't until the 25plus cohort when it switched to yes, in the majority. May be different now, given many 16 year old will have grown up with SNP government, but the data doesn't automatically support the assertion that idealistic youth vote independence for their future...

That's interesting! I had always incorrectly thought the 16 and 17 year olds had voted for independence. Thanks for posting that. There was an intention to vote poll that had them at 66% in favour and I think that must have stuck in my head. Very interesting and reassuring to those who maybe have a problem with them voting. Young people absolutely deserve a say in their future.

@Quincie

Anyway NS said that if they have a majority they will demand a referendum, they haven't got a majority. I can't see that even though greens vote with them that justifies a ref. People vote green for environmental reasons, you can't assume people actually voted green for indyref2. The judges will decide.

Green are an openly pro Independence Party. They have a pro independence majority and will absolutely seek another referendum and thank God for that!

@Quincie

Anyway NS said that if they have a majority they will demand a referendum, they haven't got a majority. I can't see that even though greens vote with them that justifies a ref. People vote green for environmental reasons, you can't assume people actually voted green for indyref2. The judges will decide.

It was in their manifesto.

I agree - it's not what I would have assumed either! Personally I don't have an issue with extending the franchise, and I agree 16-17 year olds if old enough to get a job, get married and so on should be entrusted with voting. I accept that many will vote for reasons I don't necessarily agree with, but, hey, so do lots of adults (see my earlier post about my dad, the absolute numpty...) It'll be up to the relevant campaigns to persuade each demographic of the merits of their arguments, and it does seem that the youth vote wasn't necessarily convinced by arguments "yes" used last time.

@ICouldHaveCheckedFirst

Those puzzled about the Borders and D&G voting Tory. Are you aware many are farmers and landowners who traditionally vote Tory, and many people retire to these areas from England and are not in favour of independence for Scotland.

On another point: those who say they remember how the Tories behaved in the 1980s therefore they will never vote Tory. News just in: this is the 2020s. The 1980s were 40 years ago. Its like when your Grandpa went on about what happened in the 1930s and you laughed and rolled your eyes and said 'this is the 1970s, things are different nowadays!'

I voted with an eye to the future, not to the past - I can't change that.

The FUTURE is why I'll never EVER vote Tory again. And I mean that. My husband feels the same. Significantly in Scotland, I won't even vote for them strategically. I don't care what the consequences are.

I'll never forgive them for Brexit and the lies and gaslighting.

I would rather face indyref2 than vote Tory. And I voted 'No' in Indyref 1.

And this is significant, because we're both pragmatic voters and loyal to no party. But there's a line in the sand, and the Tories crossed it.

I really don't understand why more unionists vote Tory than Labour. Never mind everything else they've done, the Tories are s*it opposition and that's never good.

@lavieengrenache

Just had enough now. The thought of another independence referendum fills me with dread. I feel like crying tbh, which is not like me at all.

You and me both. This is never-ending, and so divisive. I want to weep.

And another thing, how come I have become a “ unionist”? I don’t want independence, and it does just seem this year that nationalists have forced this new identity of “unionist” on me. I didn’t and don’t think of myself that way.

I don’t want independence, and it does just seem this year that nationalists have forced this new identity of “unionist” on me.

I'm sure plenty of nationalists don't identify as such either...

Really pleased to see that the Greens have increased their Holyrood presence, and have helped make a good pro-Independence majority in the Scottish Parliament. Also think the influx of new MSPs replacing longstanding members retiring will be a breath of fresh air. Great too to see turnout increasing. And also pretty good to see Alba crash and burn - Mr Touchy Feely has now said he might step down as leader. That didn't last long!

I'm looking forward to the months ahead, and to another referendum in the future which I hope YES wins.

@Srirachachacha

I don’t want independence, and it does just seem this year that nationalists have forced this new identity of “unionist” on me.

I'm sure plenty of nationalists don't identify as such either...

Correct.

@RaspberryCoulis

More division. More referendum campaigning while education and the rest of it is left to go to shit. More nastiness and ill-feeling.

Fucking awful. We are living in a totally divided country.

The only silver lining is that the odious Salmond appears to have crashed and burned.

Well said. I agree with you.

@Srirachachacha

I don’t want independence, and it does just seem this year that nationalists have forced this new identity of “unionist” on me.

I'm sure plenty of nationalists don't identify as such either...

Agree on the unwelcome labels. I think "separatists" in particular is a bit snarky - though I suppose technically all of them are "accurate" if you just want to pigeonhole a way of voting rather than delving into the reasons behind it. I suppose both "unionists" and "nationalists" conjure up the most extreme of those viewpoints, which isn't really something more moderate people want to be associated with. If thinking it's better to share resources more efficiently over the UK than setting up our own departments to do everything ourselves makes me unionist, so be it, but I'm not marching anywhere with an orange flag and a pipe thanks.

DH has also got a bit of a bee in his bonnet about tactical voting. How it's implied if a "unionist" wins a seat, it must be sneaky and tactical, whereas if the SNP wins, it's the Will Of The People. As if "unionists" couldn't possibly be viewed as superior representatives by anyone - even if they're the incumbent and have proven themselves at least competent, if not good. I can kind of see his point tbh.

Anyway, now it's all over I'm feeling rather deflated, have finished my wine and am off to bed.

That's it, I'm out. It's not being too dramatic to say that my mental health cannot take another independence referendum. For someone with an English husband, 2 kids born in England , the bile, and being told I didn't belong in the country where I grew up, went to uni and have lived for the past 15 years was just hideous. I'm not doing it again.

Complete disengagement. I will never vote for independence and will never vote for the SNP. So I've unfollowed anything vaguely political on Twitter. Won't be watching debates or reading leaflets. Anyone coming to the door will be given short shrift. Will hide all the threads on here and try to shield my kids from the inevitable anti-English comments.

I'm with you Raspberry. If you see me back on these threads then give me a kick up the arse. Election over, stuck with another 5 years of same old same old shite. Nothing I can do about it, mental health is shot, I'll shuffle out and make my cross at remain when the day comes and start planning my retirement across the border. My family is Scottish as far back as I've researched so far (1700s), DHs is originally Irish but have been in Scotland for hundreds of years too. I feel no affinity with half the population - or rather I guess about a third? I might be being overdramatic here - it's been a long day - but it's how I feel and I'm truly done.

I feel no affinity with half the population - or rather I guess about a third?

I feel exactly the same about the half/third that will gladly consign Scotland to another God knows how many years of being a source of ridicule, a dumping ground, a testing area and an after thought in a supposedly "equal" union.

I hope Scotland get independence. I was against it last time, but have totally changed my mind.

@AnnieHooo

Ach I'm just pleased for Jackie.

Me too and I'm a Tory.

DH has also got a bit of a bee in his bonnet about tactical voting. How it's implied if a "unionist" wins a seat, it must be sneaky and tactical, whereas if the SNP wins, it's the Will Of The People

It's infuriating, isn't it. I mean how dare we exercise our democratic right to vote and waste it by voting for the wrong party?

@Jimmynicholsbridie

I feel no affinity with half the population - or rather I guess about a third?

I feel exactly the same about the half/third that will gladly consign Scotland to another God knows how many years of being a source of ridicule, a dumping ground, a testing area and an after thought in a supposedly "equal" union.

What on earth are you on about "A source of ridicule"? By / for whom?

It's a common strawman set up by separatists that Unionists supposedly do Scotland down - yet here you are doing exactly that and wallowing in self- pity.

The extent to which proUK people worked together to try to oppose the SNP and Indyref2 was quite extraordinary to me. Some of the swings were about 10 points. I think it shows very clearly that this SNP narrative of ‘respecting the will of the Scottish people’ by granting another referendum is only applicable to half the country at best, and by pushing it through they themselves are the ones disrespecting the other half of the people. I hope they take stock of that, at least privately (I know they need to beat their chests in public to keep the faithful happy) and realise that the support for independence is far from assured at the minute.

The rhetoric so far was clearly predefined and is entirely predictable. Despite all the protestations though I think the U.K. have all the ammunition they need to say not now, and there won’t be mass uprisings if they do. Legal challenges are likely to fail. There won’t be another referendum any time soon, but the SG will continue to whine about it, waste parliament time on it when we should be rebuilding, and generally stoke the divisions that spilt us down the middle. So all in all a rough few years are ahead.

Legal challenges will definitely fail.

If you look at all the statistics from this election, the result of the 2014 referendum and consider the size of the electorate, how many of that electorate actually voted, how many voted for indy parties - there's no majority in favour of independence.

Not to mention a vote for the SNP (or Greens), does not mean a vote for independence. My bestie (who claims to be an ardent feminist) voted Greens and I know that was because of the climate and not because of independence (She's English and her DH is English too).

The courts may also consider that indyref doesn't just affect Scotland, it affects the rUK too - what about their consent to a referendum? What about their consent to lose part of the UK? What about their consent to have the ability to travel and work freely in Scotland potentially taken away from them?

If my arithmetic is correct...
They got 47% of the 65% or so of those who bothered to vote!
Hardly the ‘will of the people’
If we had had a referendum on Thursday they would have lost AGAIN!!

there's no majority in favour of independence.

I agree with this and despite the optimism of nationalists that support would grow during a campaign I tend to think the opposite. Andrew Wilson (author of the Growth Commission report) was on TV yesterday pledging that the mistakes of Brexit wouldn’t be repeated and there would be a full prospectus prepared before a vote answering all the difficult questions on currency/borders/infrastructure etc so that people make a fully informed choice. A modicum of reassurance in the chaos of nationalistic enthusiasm as this is the least we need. He was famous (infamous) for being honest about the extent of the challenge in the growth commission report and the expected decades of ‘austerity’ (or whatever your chosen term is), and he ended by saying that no one says it will be easy but it would be worth it. Thing is, I genuinely believe a fair chuck of the independence support DO believe it will be easy and are carried along on hopes and dreams, and pointing out the realities may well turn them off. I don’t doubt that there's a core of maybe a third of the population who totally understand and think it’s worth it anyway, but that’s not enough to get to 50% and certainly not into supermajority territory.

@ScotlandUnited

If my arithmetic is correct... They got 47% of the 65% or so of those who bothered to vote! Hardly the ‘will of the people’ If we had had a referendum on Thursday they would have lost AGAIN!!

Oh come on, this is how the system works. I never hear after a general election that that the winners only got 36% or 43% of the vote and therefore don't have a mandate to do anything.

SNP + Green = 72 seats. Scottish Parliament PR was set up for exactly this type of arrangement where parties work together on matters they want to pursue.