The Tierany of Tiers

[dancemom]

Teirtastic times ahead ....

I also think that's its partly the "being babied" that's the problem. We don't want to be babied. We want the "adult conversation" that we were told we were going to have, and that seems to have disappeared somewhere along the line. I don't think NS has ever said from the podium or in parliament "we are going for an elimination strategy and this is what that involves and this is why the other strategies won't work... ". She has said that in committee briefings and alluded to it in briefings and so on, but as far as I know it has never been formally "admitted" and the requirements and benchmarks/ criteria for that laid out.

So the various rules and guidance are handed down to us, and changed and tweaked, but we don't have a chance to say "how does that fit into your strategy" - because we don't have knowledge of what strategy she's following and so why x is more risky than y, or why the risk of x is considered acceptable but the risk of y isn't. So we have quarantine hotels, but also the potential for international travel to start at some point. I just don't believe that both of those will coexist - so which one is going to give?! And why not admit that, rather than live in this shroedingers situation of both of them being in place at the same time?

I think people are following their own strategy and minimising their own risk of covid, but also other risks of losing their livelihood, losing their friendships, mental health declining and so on. They aren't being selfish or foolish really, or going off in a huff because of negative messaging. Just acting in frustration that we aren't being given the info we need, so are taking matters into our own hands while the government comes to its senses and realises we can't carry on like this indefinitely when hospitalisations are decreasing. It's not altogether obvious that this is a worse strategy than the one NS may or may not be following.

@Icannever

I think that is very condescending and patronising *@snowcoveredcampsies*. People don’t need babied, they need hope. That is a perfectly reasonable human response after a truly awful year. A lot of peoples mental health is at an all time low and you calling them babies is hardly helpful. Also it’s not how the message is delivered, it is the actual message

I'm sorry @Icannever but I do think it's a bit pathetic and if that comes across as condescending then so be it. We need realism not a magic 'oh you can all go to the pub in June'. People's mental health problems aren't going to fixed by that.

As a pp said this virus mutates quickly and isn't going anywhere. Caution isn't a bad thing.

@StarryEyeSurprise is correct. It's pretty easy to follow the route out of lockdown. It will happen and it won't be all that different from the other 4 nations.

@ResilienceWanker how exactly would you expect that to work? I mean you could contact your msp and mp and relay your concerns / questions. We elect a government to lead not to involve us in the minutiae of every single decision. The SG tried to involve some members of the public and that was widely ridiculed on here because the good posters of Scotnset didn't like what they heard.

@ResilienceWanker I agree we have never been told what "elimination" means. What level is this when we can go yep achieved....

@snowcoveredcampsies I expect the SG to say we wish to hit this level..... That's not unachievable or ridiculous request to provide some information on what they are aiming for.

Currently we have an invisible target so people go whats the point. England has a target so many people are aiming for it.

Its not too difficult to understand that if someone can see a finish line to them they will keep going compared to someone being told the finish line doesn't exist or well we know where the finish line is but we aren't telling you.....

@Scottishskifun but what I'm reading on this thread is a whole bunch of folk throwing the rattle out the pram because they haven't been given a 'finish line' when at any point variants, mutations, increases in numbers, changes in presentations could render that null and void. Since when did caution when dealing with something like this become a bad thing?

Instead of being grown ups and accepting this people are saying well I'll not be following their rules then. I only follow rules if there's a carrot at the end. Okay. Good luck ever getting to the finishing line then, wherever that may be

But NS referred to the adult conversation. She was the one who said she'd treat us like grown ups and let us know what her plan was and why, and it's not at all clear she has done that. So we still don't know, for example, that cases are spreading in clinical settings, and this is what is being done about that... but cases in hairdressers and gyms with ppe and whatsit are low, so we can open them with appropriate safeguards in place...

Of course if she did set out strategy people may well disagree - and that's where the opposition should be questioning and probing and passing on constituent concerns. Obviously we shouldn't be grilling her personally, but at the moment the "strategy" is changing so much we aren't given a chance to see if it is working, where bits are failing that could be improved and so on. It all just seems so much at the whim of the SG without any wider consultation or based on evidence.

• 532 new cases of COVID-19 reported
• 21,010 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results – 2.9% of these were positive
• 0 new reported death(s) of people who have tested positive (Noting that registry offices are now generally closed at weekends)
• 31 people were in intensive care yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 344 people were in hospital yesterday with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 2,144,940* people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 220,188 have received their second dose

873,784 new vaccinations registered in 🇬🇧 yesterday

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 686,424 1st doses / 70,449 2nd doses
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 59,415 / 13,160
🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 26,939 / 9,429
NI 4,785 / 3,183

Do we go all out on a Saturday?!

Thanks @dancemom

I feel like the SG are the ones treating people like adults if I'm honest. They're acknowledging that it's a changing and changeable situation and refusing to dish out definitive dates. That makes sense to me.

@snowcoveredcampsies it's not people throwing their toys out of the pram it's compliance fatigue which is an actual thing public health are well too aware of (and we're at the beginning of the lock down last March).
Yes people need hope, they need something to work towards and need transparency to know what that is.
People realise if a new issue such as a new variant arises that it could all change (hence Englands roadmap has those caviats in it).
Its not being childish its human behaviour and very well researched. 😂

I didn't say caution was a bad thing but it has to be appropriate to the risk. For 12 months we have been told that risk is to the vulnerable and the overwhelming of the NHS....... Goalpost now moved except SG haven't said what to.
Feel free to say yes sir no sir 3 bags full sir to every single restriction but majority of people have started going well if there is no end in sight then I will continue with my life as its been on hold for a year already and life is too short.

They give a very slanted picture (and gave a slanted set of experts to those citizens too snowcoveredcampsies.)

Having read / listened around this a lot over the last year I have much more confidence in Chris Whitty for example.

I read posters like yourself and Starry on Mumsnet so it's hardly a one sided conversation now is it? So why characterise it so?

I think it’s touching that people think the government has their health and interests at heart.

Compliance fatigue is just people throwing their rattles out the pram on a wide scale. I'm aware of what the behavioural scientists have said. Once upon a time a long, long time ago it was part of one of my degrees.

On an individual level it's people taking the huff and saying they've had enough. In some cases I get it, in some cases it's childish. If everyone exercised a bit more social responsibility and sucked it up a bit then we would be in a better place.

I think it’s quite childish to have to have your every move approved by the government to “stay safe”.

Life’s too short! Let’s make the most of it before the Holyrood variant takes us all out.

@RaindropsSplashRainbows that would be Chris Whitty who reckons we'll not be losing social distancing or masks for the foreseeable ?

What's he saying that's so different? He's a pretty cautious guy in fact.

@RaindropsSplashRainbows I'm not sure how I have characterised it as a one sided convo?

Wow! Those vaccine numbers are amazing dancemom!

I also think it's great news that even though people may be disobeying the rules, hospitalisations and deaths are still decreasing. Cases and infections may be increasing, and yes, with what the SG has currently said, that is a problem because it will delay relaxations - and continue disruption with isolation of contacts and so on. But isn't it a good thing that even with more (albeit illegal) freedom, the situation in the NHS isn't worsening? There is talk of increased cases leading to mutations and vaccine escape and so on (which the vaccine scientists don't seem too worried about, given they accept there will need to be a tweaked annual booster anyway) but none of those are yet sufficient to stop the decline in hospitalisations and deaths, and if they do, everyone will understand why there needs to be a bit more caution for a bit. I don't see why we should have freedom put on hold indefinitely for something that may or may not happen.

I know I am personally scunnered because based on the current dates allowed my family have no idea when we can all be in the same room or outdoor space again. That's a huge worry for me personally. I am struggling with that for me and for my parents.

I can't even think about how I'll deal with this if something happens to either of them. Covid related or not.

We are all being very cautious and respectful of the rules. But sooner or later we'll need to start moving towards something more realistic. We can't live not seeing our family ever again.

If only the authorities had got on top of the Glasgow situation earlier..

If hospitals and care homes were not spreading infection..

The majority of people did stay home. They didn't go out and take their normal exercise of walking about. They didn't take their normal immunity boost of meeting other humans who they care for. And many didn't use the NHS even when they really should have done. The non covid death toll is going to be horrendous.

The compliance of most ordinary people has outperformed every ivory tower prediction.

If only people would stop believing in the fairytale of the beneficent Scottish government.

Also, it's important to distinguish between people railing here about the restrictions, and what they are actually doing in real life! I'm as grumpy as the next person, but in real life I haven't met anyone socially in or outside the home for months, and the highlight of last week was going to the post office...

@PoloMintPatty

I know I am personally scunnered because based on the current dates allowed my family have no idea when we can all be in the same room or outdoor space again. That's a huge worry for me personally. I am struggling with that for me and for my parents.

I can't even think about how I'll deal with this if something happens to either of them. Covid related or not.

We are all being very cautious and respectful of the rules. But sooner or later we'll need to start moving towards something more realistic. We can't live not seeing our family ever again.

Well on the 26th April you could meet some of your family outdoors

On the 17th May you could meet some indoors.

Just now you could meet one of them outdoors.

If all that goes well then we could safely assume that by mid to end June even more restrictions will be lifted.

I mean the dates are out there. Not entirely sure why folk are claiming they know absolutely nothing and have not an ounce of hope.

@RaindropsSplashRainbows yes to your post there.

@snowcoveredcampsies but we aren't a socialist nation so that's not going to happen. Tbh I'm amazed it's taken this long for many to get to this point. But with vaccinations for most of the at risk groups nearly complete and NHS no longer being overwhelmed risk it's normal behaviour for people to go right we have done what you asked now we want to get back to getting on with our lives to a certain extent as much as possible.

Everyone does their own risk assessment in their heads to what they are prepared to do and not. I won't go into friends houses if they haven't had the vaccine and I haven't had the vaccine for instance.
I will however travel to England to stay with and see my family who have all been vaccinated with both doses now as the risk switches from me to them.

My son has attended nursery since June last year that's always been a risk but we assessed it compared to the risk of his development and behaviour.

Many people are simply at the same point rather then blindly following everything without question to it or going is that an actual risk.

@Scottishskifun I don't think you need to be a socialist to know right from wrong.