SNP supporters and the hate crime bill

[Ifyourefeelingsinister]

Scottish government are passing a bill tonight that will give hate crime protection to every protected characteristic - apart from sex. Yes, women apparently don't register as far as hate crimes go.

But cross dressers will be protected so that's fine - don't insult a man in a kilt even in your own home, as you could be arrested. However, every day misogyny - that's fine.

SNP supporters - are you ok with this????

I’m right there with you Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

I keep thinking of all those shared flats where the flatmate from hell is now able to report flatmates for thought crime

Call me an optimist but I think many many women are catching up with this nonsense. Joan McAlpine had the highest number of votes in SNP internal elections recently - her cause is standing up for women. The polls are starting to move. And that's before the latest scandal. No woman should vote for a party that does not support our sex. Women won't wheest and ForWomen Scotland are running a tremendous grassroots campaign. I hope it builds up and that the MSPs and parties who voted for this travesty get a drubbing in the election.

@sessell

Call me an optimist but I think many many women are catching up with this nonsense. Joan McAlpine had the highest number of votes in SNP internal elections recently - her cause is standing up for women. The polls are starting to move. And that's before the latest scandal. No woman should vote for a party that does not support our sex. Women won't wheest and ForWomen Scotland are running a tremendous grassroots campaign. I hope it builds up and that the MSPs and parties who voted for this travesty get a drubbing in the election.

Yes I repeat again - just deny the SNP/Green your support but do cast a vote and it can be sorted out. The attack on your right to free speech inside your own home can arguably be challenged at a UK level. Seems outrageous. Like STASI East Germany. Imagine if Alexa is listening in as well?

I went to sleep last night as I get up at 5. I don't see that rape has been de criminalised at all. To answer your question- sex isn't under the hate crime bill as there will be a separate bill for it. Women are covered currently under The Domestic Abuse Act, The Harassment Act etc- the same legislation that was there, is still there surely? Today. I don't know why they couldn't have put through the two bills concurrently, or if that's even possible. I didn't watch the speeches so I'm sure you all know more than me but I've obviously read the information re why it was and is felt that sexual harassment shouldn't be under the hate crime bill.

I see there’s a lot of outrage at Patrick Harvie but can’t seem to find out what he said, does anybody know? This bill is an absolute disgrace.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/feb/22/ill-set-no-limits-on-which-women-to-protect-from-hate-says-helena-kennedy

I was just reading this. The working group have a year to decide whether to add sex onto the hate crime bill or, as recommended by the groups I mentioned, to have its own bill. Of course, I can see why people are questioning - why wasn't this done already ?

For me the issue is where the line crosses over from Free Speech to Hate Crime. On its own I don't think being a woman is a "protected characteristic". It is a fact which others don't get to define on my behalf so I have issues with both sides of that argument.

Nonetheless the urgency and political opportunism being used to pass the HCB does nothing to allay apprehension. The willingness of Govt to interfere in private lives and relationships is pretty shocking all round atm.

Also absolutely tone deaf and spectacularly bad timing in the current environment as the tweet screenshot above points out. 2 women a week murdered in the UK as a result of abusive thinking leading to action. 3 high profile cases reported in the last couple of days including in Scotland. That is what needs rooted out and where the light needs shining.

Adding sex as a characteristic is problematic from a feminist and legal standpoint. The protections would extend to the male sex class too and there’s a concern that this would prevent or inhibit class analysis eg pointing out that the male sex class is responsible for over x% of sex crime, violence etc. You can see that it could turn into a ‘tit for tat’ with the male complaining that the female retort to him was sexist etc . Some women ‘s groups therefore favour a stand-alone offence of misogyny instead.
What I find staggering though are the ‘visuals’, the fact that theSNP were happy to go ahead and strongly defend a bill that protects almost every class that experiences discrimination that you can think of including men who dress as the opposite sex as a hobby, but not women and that in a context in which there are strong views on both sides of the trans rights / rights to single sex debate.

Actually since the final vote was delayed until today, I'm going to try one last ditch attempt at writing to all my MSPs this morning to ask them to vote with their conscience rather than party. It probably won't work, but it's the only thing in my power I can do to speak out against this.

Could someone with a bit of time and who is more eloquent than me maybe post a draft email here that we can fire off today ?

It is a terrible piece of legislation which I understand it was not by Scottish Parliamentary Counsel who were cut out. So not good standard at all.

It effectively places certain classes of people above others in terms of speech.

It will not be replicated in England and Wales. Why are Scottish women worth less?

@LexMitior

It is a terrible piece of legislation which I understand it was not by Scottish Parliamentary Counsel who were cut out. So not good standard at all.

It effectively places certain classes of people above others in terms of speech.

It will not be replicated in England and Wales. Why are Scottish women worth less?

Can you link to the misogyny as a hate crime legislation in England and Wales please? I'd like a read.

Starry you get the wrong end of the stick. It the absence of the HCB equivalent in England and Wales which makes for this imbalance for Scottish women.

You may be interested to know that the Law Commission of England and Wales are considering reform about hateful conduct towards groups with certain characteristics and attitudes, including misogyny over a number of years before proceeding with any recommendation to make legislation, which would be drafted by Parliamentary Counsel.

I’d say that was better than a rushed bill, drafted by lobby groups. Is that a good way to do things?

Ok, thanks. Yes, I see the point re why not hold back the Hate Crime Bill here until it's been decided whether it's more effective to include here or have a separate bill.

For an email I’d go short and simple:

Dear MSP

Please vote against the HCB today.

By voting for it you are failing women.

Yours

There was a link before somewhere too where you could email all your MSPs at once? I can’t see it and I’m working in a sec

Yes, and because of the implications regarding the balance of rights and protections (huge!) then rushing such legislation is often a bad idea.

It would IMO be wise for the SG to take a step back and pause the HCB. It can be improved or redrafted to deal with these concerns that people are posting about. Women are half the population! All the justification needed, really.

@WouldBeGood

For an email I’d go short and simple:

Dear MSP

Please vote against the HCB today.

By voting for it you are failing women.

Yours

And if they are SNP or green or any other person likely to vote in favour, tell them they will lose your vote.

You can find your MSPs here:

www.theyworkforyou.com/msp/

I emailed them all last week and I'm about to do it again now.

Wait this one is better, gives you the email addresses, not sure why the other doesn't!

beta.parliament.scot/msps/current-and-previous-msps

@shouldistop

Could someone with a bit of time and who is more eloquent than me maybe post a draft email here that we can fire off today ?

I actually think it's more impactful if people put their concerns in their own words. It doesn't have to be particularly eloquent, it just lets them know that there is a lot of concern about this.

I've done mine

Using my phone, it started just coming up with predictive text so done them in no time.

This is most of what I wrote:

Please, please vote against the Hate Crime Bill today.

If you support it you are failing to protect women across this country. We are frightened and many of us feel abandoned by our government and many of our parliamentary representatives.

A woman and her daughter were murdered by a man wielding a hammer just miles from me a few days ago. A woman was murdered by a policeman in the last week.

Women need the same protection under the law that all other groups will be given by this bill.

Please do not support it in its current form. I – and many others – will never again vote for anyone who supports it.

Posting a bit from joans speech in the debate which will continue today

When we last debated violence against women last November, several members, including ministers, praised the femicide census, which documents the killing of 1,425 women by men in the UK last year, yet we seem to be saying that femicide is not hate. I know that a sex aggravator would protect men, but that is already the case under the 2010 act. In the 2010 act, sex is the characteristic, but it mainly protects women. In the bill, as in the 2010 act, the protected characteristics of race and sexual orientation also protect straight people and white people but would be applied most often in crimes against gay people and black people, who face the most oppression. Therefore, why not also include sex, which would protect women more than men?

More below

A number of official women’s organisations, which have been mentioned by Johann Lamont and which work closely with and are funded by central Government, have backed the decision not to include a sex aggravator. However, as the ForWomen Scotland briefing points out, none of those organisations did any research, even in their own networks, before getting to that position. Those organisations suggest that men could weaponise hate crime in domestic violence cases, but our domestic violence laws are already gender neutral.