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Welcome to Scotsnet - discuss all aspects of life in Scotland, including relocating, schools and local areas.

SNP supporters and the hate crime bill

456 replies

Ifyourefeelingsinister · 10/03/2021 20:52

Scottish government are passing a bill tonight that will give hate crime protection to every protected characteristic - apart from sex. Yes, women apparently don't register as far as hate crimes go.

But cross dressers will be protected so that's fine - don't insult a man in a kilt even in your own home, as you could be arrested. However, every day misogyny - that's fine.

SNP supporters - are you ok with this????

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19
reprehensibleme · 18/03/2021 08:44

LizzieMacQueen, yes, our council tax went up by 10% in a single year after being frozen for several years and rose quite steeply the following year too - I’d much prefer a steady 2% every year increase than be hit with a huge increase every few years. Steady increases must benefit councils too - they can budget properly, and they’re getting the extra each year rather than having to wait —doesn’t help if they invest the surplus in wobbly overseas banks though—

WouldBeGood · 18/03/2021 08:53

Surely they must have saved money this year with schools/tips/leisure centres/maintenance like grass cutting stopping?

GreenlandTheMovie · 18/03/2021 08:56

@WouldBeGood

I think it appeals to a certain demographic who like being “looked after” by the state, and believe the promises of milk and honey. And who never question things like human rights or personal freedoms. Lots of people just have to try to get on with life the best they can and no time or motivation to think about the big things.

Tories bad, England bad, Scotland good is the mantra for lots of people in Scotland.

What is happening in Scotland is really strange though, and because its still part of the UK, its unremarked upon internationally.

I've mentioned before that this has been my research field for a few years, and I trawl through SG responses to consultations, amongst other things. I keep coming across the phrase "unique Scottish circumstances" being used to justify what are essentially departures from human rights laws.

This is important, because having legislation on place which breaches human rights is one of the things that would keep an independent Scotland from joining the EU. When you think that Turkey will never join because of this, cand the Eastern European states in the last enlargement had to permit their legal systems and systems of governments to be changed so as to be eligible, a track record of passing recent legislation in breach of human rights, much of which has been successfully challenged in the courts, doesn't look good to the EU.

WouldBeGood · 18/03/2021 09:01

It’s really interesting @GreenlandTheMovie

Are the “unique Scottish circumstances” ever defined or explained?

UnderHisAye · 18/03/2021 09:11

@WouldBeGood

I think it appeals to a certain demographic who like being “looked after” by the state, and believe the promises of milk and honey. And who never question things like human rights or personal freedoms. Lots of people just have to try to get on with life the best they can and no time or motivation to think about the big things.

Tories bad, England bad, Scotland good is the mantra for lots of people in Scotland.

I think for a lot of people it's actually about hope.

I am no believer in the milk and honey thing, but I've got hope that in an independent Scotland my vote might count. That when my MP stands up to speak they won't be heckled and taunted. That the PM of my country wouldn't openly slag it off in the media and in speeches.

A lot of people need that hope; I don't think it's fair to say they don't care about other things like human rights. Of course they do.

The Tories/England bad thing...I don't know if that will ever fade in Scotland really. Not while we're so very obviously the junior partner in this apparent union of equals.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/03/2021 09:15

Article by Murdo Fraser in the Scotsman.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scotlands-hate-crime-bill-how-the-snp-have-let-women-down-with-this-flawed-legislation-murdo-fraser-msp-3167502

Scottish Conservatives are promising to repeal Part 2 of the Hate Crime Bill.

"I have been struck since then by the volume of correspondence I have had from women, from all parts of Scotland, who are deeply concerned about the passing of the Bill in its final form, without protection for women, and the message that it sends about the priorities of the SNP government. Many of these women tell me that they have never voted Conservative in the past, but are now seriously considering doing so, as the party best able to oppose the SNP government on these issues."

Interestingly, there's no mention of adding in sex as a protected characteristic in the Bill.

GreenlandTheMovie · 18/03/2021 09:33

@WouldBeGood

It’s really interesting *@GreenlandTheMovie*

Are the “unique Scottish circumstances” ever defined or explained?

No.

It sometimes appears with a slightly different phraseology eg "special and unique Scottish circumstances". I counted that it appeared 11 times in the white paper on Independence last time round.

It was also used to justify what FOI rights should not be extended to environmental concerns a few years ago (fortunately the SG was just a consulted and it was not a reserved matter).

It pops up all the bloody time in SG communications, yet its never defined. I can give examples if anyone's interested.

Blurberoo · 18/03/2021 09:44

Wow that’s nuts, @GreenlandTheMovie! I wish we had healthy investigative journalism in the UK Sad

WouldBeGood · 18/03/2021 09:46

@UnderHisAye yes, hope.

I’m not really talking about ideological supporters of independence here. That's different. I’m really meaning non political types.

I think it’s a bit like the people who voted fur Trump. If you feel poor and unheard then there’s nothing to lose.

I’m absolutely no fan of the current WM government either I should add: a shower of appalling individuals.

WouldBeGood · 18/03/2021 09:50

Yes please @GreenlandTheMovie. I’m really interested in that as a concept

UnderHisAye · 18/03/2021 09:51

Yes, I agree, independence has become a symbol really, a shimmering thing with no hard edges or pesky details that sits just out of reach. And to get there....well the SNP are the only game in town, whether they like it or not.

Not all independence supporters are also SNP supporters.

WouldBeGood · 18/03/2021 09:53

No, @UnderHisAye, and vice versa I think? People who vote SNP but aren’t particularly pro independence.

UnderHisAye · 18/03/2021 09:55

Yes probably, a lot are probably ex-Labour voters who don't feel connected to the new Labour of Wokedom.

GreenlandTheMovie · 18/03/2021 13:02

@WouldBeGood

Yes please *@GreenlandTheMovie*. I’m really interested in that as a concept
There were actually 14 (not 11) references to "special", "specific" or "unique" "Scottish circumstances in the White Paper on Independence (Scotland in the European Union, (Scottish Government, November 2013). www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/

The Scottish Government response to increasing FOI rights was even more astonishing. (as a contributor to the United Kingdom Government's Review of the Balances of Competences, contained in the Scottish Government publication Scotland's Agenda For EU Reform, Section 13):

"Preservation of the current EU position on access to environmental information. While there may be some benefits, harmonising rules across the EU on rights to access environmental information has created confusion among staff in public bodies and members of the public about how they differ from FOISA. Harmonisation does not add to the information rights people already have in Scotland under FOISA and almost all EIR requests come from people located in Scotland so there is no benefit in making it easier for people to make requests in various countries as there seems to be little demand for this;"

While confusion amongst staff members hardly seems a credible reason to justify failing to extend citizen's rights, the denial of the benefits of such requests to those EU citizens who are outwith Scotland seems to contrary to the whole concept of the EU. It is hardly beyond the realms of possibility that even a Scottish citizen may choose to work or study abroad while retaining an interest or property in Scotland that may be affected by access to such rights, or that a non-Scottish resident may have such an interest.

"On the right to access information within the Member States: more EU competence or action is viewed as unnecessary in order to enable citizens to access official environmental information within Scotland;"

"harmonising rules across the EU on rights to access environmental information has created confusion among staff in public bodies and members of the public about how they differ from FOISA. Harmonisation does not add to the information rights people already have in Scotland under FOISA and almost all EIR requests come from people located in Scotland so there is no benefit in making it easier for people to make requests in various countries as there seems to be little demand for this;"

"Scotland and others with freedom of information legislation equivalent to the EIRs being allowed to opt out of the EIRs. This would reduce complexity for requesters and public bodies by allowing all requests to be handled under one regime. We believe Scottish legislation is more appropriate as Scotland already has very robust freedom of information legislation under FOISA which covers all information, including environmental information, and is designed specifically for Scottish circumstances."

www.gov.scot/Resource/0045/00458063.pdf

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 18/03/2021 18:05

Well I finally got a reply from my SNP MSP - 4 pages of stop your moaning & we’ll get around to women after the revolution Hmm plus absolute gold...

“The use of “different sex” rather than “opposite sex” in the context of this Bill, ensures that those who are in a relationship with a non-binary person are not excluded from protection.” ConfusedConfusedConfused

So is having NB registered as a legal sex the next step of lunacy?

I told my 12 yr old what he has written & she said “well he’s a bit think then isn’t he the NB person is male or female” Grin

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 18/03/2021 18:06

How do we stop Scotland? I want to get off!

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 18/03/2021 18:10

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons

How do we stop Scotland? I want to get off!
Vote to deny the SNP/Greens their majority.
Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 18/03/2021 18:21

Already my plan doto I’m worried it’s not enough

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/03/2021 18:48

“The use of “different sex” rather than “opposite sex” in the context of this Bill, ensures that those who are in a relationship with a non-binary person are not excluded from protection.”

Why are these people so stupid? 😩

WouldBeGood · 19/03/2021 07:54

@GreenlandTheMovie it’s all very much “wha’s like us?” And no reason given for the “uniqueness”.

Your post also seems to me to demonstrate that joining the EU would not be likely, which is very depressing.

WouldBeGood · 19/03/2021 07:56

@Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons that’s just ludicrous. I’m glad your twelve year old can see through it!

GreenlandTheMovie · 19/03/2021 08:04

[quote WouldBeGood]@GreenlandTheMovie it’s all very much “wha’s like us?” And no reason given for the “uniqueness”.

Your post also seems to me to demonstrate that joining the EU would not be likely, which is very depressing.[/quote]
That's the conclusion I've come to. Selling independence on the back of near guaranteed EU membership is almost approaching fraud on a massive scale.

WaxOnFeckOff · 19/03/2021 08:28

I just watched the kirsten oswald bit with jess Phillips and Ian hislop. About 10 minutes into the programme for anyone looking for it. It's just so depressing that she continues to sing from the same hymn sheet. 8 hours blah blah blah. Well apart from the fact there were breaks and lunch, if she had answered the questions then it might have taken less time.

Yes to the politicking of the women and to the constant reference of Boris and mainly, do none of them ever have an original thought in their head?

Sitting in her room with her EU flag, it's nonsense.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 19/03/2021 10:25

@NonnyMouse1337

“The use of “different sex” rather than “opposite sex” in the context of this Bill, ensures that those who are in a relationship with a non-binary person are not excluded from protection.”

Why are these people so stupid? 😩

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

I can’t decide if I’m more glad it’s not a well used line that everyone has seen already or more worried that my MSP is the stupidest 😳

NonnyMouse1337 · 19/03/2021 12:28

I can’t decide if I’m more glad it’s not a well used line that everyone has seen already or more worried that my MSP is the stupidest

Makes you wonder about their other responsibilities and decision making as a MSP. Shock

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