Tiers until the end of time

[runningpink]

Quickly putting this up as last thread is full

@WaxOnFeckOff 'some contact' could be via phone, FaceTime, an outside walk etc

I understood what @OldRailer meant, and it wasn’t to demean or devalue older people - quite the opposite. Maybe your rose coloured glasses are impairing your ability to read for comprehension.

I'm genuinely willing to admit I don't get it. I just need someone to explain what it means.

@Jellycatspyjamas

The quality of our experience may have been eroded but our rights haven't been removed.

Excellent, I’ll avail myself of my right to have my sister and her family over for dinner (private family life), I’ll send my daughter to her gymnastics class (association, play, friendships), hell I’ll even organise a pro-Indy March to show my support for this shit show (free association, political expression). I might even roll the boat out and give my sister a hug.

Except I can’t. Because the police can now question me and stop me doing it. By law the police need a reasonable, unbiased reason to think you might have committed or being committing a crime. In criminalising daily activities they effectively have the right to stop you at any time, just for being outside. If that’s not an erosion of human rights I’m not sure what is.

This isn’t about “quality of experience”, it’s about not being allowed to have that experience at all. And being criminalised if you are so bold as to push back.

Indeed. We hardly have liberty right now when we're only allowed to leave our homes for specific, government mandated reasons. We may not be in an actual prison but we are far from free.

I'm genuinely willing to admit I don't get it. I just need someone to explain what it means.

I read as we should treat them as if they were terminal because we don't know how long they have. Fil is almost 79, the average of death for a man in Scotland is 80? Now he has money on his side but he's missing a 3rd of his heart. He might live to a 100 but it's highly unlikely so each week like this means he's losing out on time with his grandchildren, time he and they can't get back.

Thanks very much @Dinosauratemydaffodils that's actually very helpful.

I read it as the same, I think.

But where you see it as allowing them quality time with their loved ones I was viewing it as putting them in harm's way.

Both valid views I think and people will of course see this completely differently and I suppose it would up to individual families to decide whether to follow the rules or not.

I've just read back and was struck by the reductive misrepresentation of the swimming lesson point by one poster and the subsequent quoting of that by another like-minded poster. s?So that something NOONE actually said is taken as a shocking viewpoint. Interesting technique. It's probably got a name I don't know!

We may not be in an actual prison but we are far from free.

Not to forget the thousands of people shielding who were literally compelled to stay at home for months on end. Explain to me again how their human rights were unaffected?

Yes I am crabbit and fed up with both life these threads and will go do something more productive!
Good wishes to all.

@Jellycatspyjamas their literally shielding because their lives are thought to be at threat.

Human rights are pretty useless if you're dead.

They're

So now you’re arguing it’s a necessary erosion of human rights, rather than saying they’re not being eroded at all. That’s an entirely different argument.

Their experience is being eroded.

Their human rights are pretty much intact with the exception of right to assemble which has been removed from individuals time and again over the course of history. Also maybe family life but I suppose that depends on how the law defines close family. Like you can't have your sister over for dinner as a pp very reasonably pointed out. Not sure where that stands law wise though.

A shielding individual stays home because they want to protect their life. They can still exert almost all of their human rights it's just not safe to do so. They are stuck between a rock and hard place but its not a removal of human rights.

And I should say the right to assemble does come with that caveat. It can be removed.

I read it as: people are afforded a bit more leeway in terms of visiting if someone is deemed to be terminal so that, if we treat all the elderly as if they are terminal then that gives more opportunities for contact with their loved ones.

@WaxOnFeckOff yes @Dinosauratemydaffodils very kindly explained.

The elderly can count as vulnerable though so we can already pretty much do that if we see fit.

I suppose terminal has connotations I found jarring. If I was a sprightly 75 year old and someone called me terminal and told me the rules to keep me safe didn't apply any more I wouldn't be chuffed!

But where you see it as allowing them quality time with their loved ones I was viewing it as putting them in harm's way.

I think it's individual and should be up to the at risk people now. It's the opinion of both fil's GP and his doctor daughter that he had covid in March of last year (friends went skiing in Italy and then loads of us came down with a really nasty cough/fever just before lockdown) and now he's had a vaccine. He's desperate to meet up and go for a walk.

My grandmother died last year (not of covid) and not being able to support my mum was really hard. Phonecalls don't cut it in those circumstances. It's also the age of the kids I think. My dc don't do video chats at all, they are six and two and have zero interest. Despite both talking non stop in person, they just go quiet on zoom/Skype.

In other related news, I phoned my psychiatrist's secretary yesterday as per his instructions if I was struggling. I haven't spoken to him since July despite almost being sectioned in April/May. He'll phone me at some point apparently and if I haven't heard anything in 3 weeks I should phone back...in the meantime I should make sure I'm getting fresh air!

kurtrussellsbeard you are getting nowhere here 🤦

Patience of a saint. ❤

[quote kurtrussellsbeard]@WaxOnFeckOff 'some contact' could be via phone, FaceTime, an outside walk etc [/quote]
@kurtrussellsbeard my FIL couldn’t work a mobile phone or iPad, never having owned one. His mobility was so limited that a walk would have been impossible. Talking on the house phone was possible but doesn’t compare to having your son physically there beside you. I do think that prioritising testing for relatives of the elderly and unwell could have been done to help that. I remember Captain Tom saying in the Guardian before he died that the loneliness of the elderly should be of huge concern.

@blowinahoolie

kurtrussellsbeard you are getting nowhere here 🤦

why does she need to get anywhere? We are apparently all allowed to have different views?

Lol patience of a saint 😂😂😂

why does she need to get anywhere? We are apparently all allowed to have different views

Nope, you're facepalm levels of stupid apparently. 🤣

You have given me my first laugh out loud starry for a few days

Thanks 🙌🏽

@StarryEyeSurprise

Patience of a saint. ❤

This.