Tiers until the end of time

[runningpink]

Quickly putting this up as last thread is full

Check out this patient Saint 🤣

@AgentCooper absolutely. I think in those circumstances the guidance is very clear that, if you and your FIL were comfortable with it, then contact absolutely would be allowed to care for a vulnerable person.

@WaxOnFeckOff we are all entitled to our opinions and they can and should be different. What's a bit dodgy is spouting blatant untruths as facts without expecting a bit of push back.

Like saying you're not allowed to care for vulnerable old folk.
Like saying our human rights have been removed.

@kurtrussellsbeard indeed, but in the early months of the pandemic DH was terrified that him being near his dad would kill him so he didn’t go near him. He would love to have those months back but then he didn’t know FIL would die in December.

@StatisticallyChallenged so am I apparently though? Two year old I think it was 🤔 or worse than. Can't quite remember.

@WaxOnFeckOff we are all entitled to our opinions and they can and should be different. What's a bit dodgy is spouting blatant untruths as facts without expecting a bit of push back.

But then that cuts both ways.

Also, it's easy to soundbite about what is allowed but the practicalities of those things are impossible for lots of people - but then that's fine?

Horrible situation @AgentCooper and I do sympathise. I lost my parent during the first lockdown and it was really, really hard. We text a lot which was nice, they couldn't speak so no FaceTime or phone calls, and I obviously still have them which is also nice.

It sounds like you loved him very much though and I'm sure he knew that.

I'm not saying nobody is suffering. I can assure you I know that people are suffering.

It doesn't make it not true though does it @WaxOnFeckOff. Practicalities impede people in all situations at all times.

Of course it cuts both ways - it's quite clear that you know that.

People have made really valid points like the PP talking about the human right of family life etc.

Some people though aren't interested in making any points they just want to suggest that by offering an alternative view or opinion that you're shitting people down.

My 2 year old isn't stupid.

No I'm sure they're not! They have however allowed you to develop levels of patience to be civil to (stupid) folk like me on the internet

Apparently

We are all in lockdown to protect 1. the NHS from going over capacity and 2. the elderly and vulnerable from disease. On point 2, the most at risk have already been done and the 'somewhat at risk' are also quite the way through and expected to be done by the middle of April. We already know that the vaccine massively reduces the need for hospitalisation, and hospital numbers continue to fall, so we can reasonably expect that by April point 1 will be achieved too. Of course we should keep an eye on the numbers, but at this point, if points 1 and 2 are met, why wouldn't we start getting back to normal human contact?

I'm also really struggling to understand why an older person who is vaccinated and/or has had the disease (both of which would be expected to give immunity) shouldn't be able to hug their children or grandchildren if they choose to? The disrespect and lack of agency to make their own choices that we're giving to this group, who are as protected as they ever will be, is astonishing. If the NHS is not at risk of being overwhelmed and the vulnerable are protected (expected by late April), who are we to tell people at that point that they can't hug their family because it's not safe? And video or phone calls are obviously a very poor substitute for actual human contact. Sometimes you just need a hug!

If that's how you choose to interpret it that's up to you. You're good at putting your own spin on things so I shan't stop you.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us I think that everything you say makes complete sense.

I also think that that's largely the plan and that we will see a significant easing by the beginning of May and almost total normality in June.

I don't think the government trust folk not to just relax completely if they say it though. Obviously there are unpleasant implications there that they think we're thick / don't trust them but I'm assuming they're taking advice from behaviourists.

As a previous poster mentioned they've had to revisit the English messaging as well because it was felt to be a bit too encouraging.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

We are all in lockdown to protect 1. the NHS from going over capacity and 2. the elderly and vulnerable from disease. On point 2, the most at risk have already been done and the 'somewhat at risk' are also quite the way through and expected to be done by the middle of April. We already know that the vaccine massively reduces the need for hospitalisation, and hospital numbers continue to fall, so we can reasonably expect that by April point 1 will be achieved too. Of course we should keep an eye on the numbers, but at this point, if points 1 and 2 are met, why wouldn't we start getting back to normal human contact?

I'm also really struggling to understand why an older person who is vaccinated and/or has had the disease (both of which would be expected to give immunity) shouldn't be able to hug their children or grandchildren if they choose to? The disrespect and lack of agency to make their own choices that we're giving to this group, who are as protected as they ever will be, is astonishing. If the NHS is not at risk of being overwhelmed and the vulnerable are protected (expected by late April), who are we to tell people at that point that they can't hug their family because it's not safe? And video or phone calls are obviously a very poor substitute for actual human contact. Sometimes you just need a hug!

Yes, I agree

Well I think kurt that it comes across as if you feel you are the exemplar of the moral high ground and anyone who believes differently or that other options are available are covidiots/don't know what they are talking about/are granny killers/plain wrong etc.

@StatisticallyChallenged if by 'own spin' you mean I have my own opinion/ view then yes that's right and I would imagine pretty standard across most humans.

As for putting my own spin on that particular example, I'm not so sure. It's there in black and white on the railing thread. That's only for a very specific type of railing. For a very specific group of people. 😊

I can see why it might seem like that @WaxOnFeckOff .

I think it's because a lot of people on this thread are really keen for restrictions to be lifted even though it will almost certainly result in avoidable deaths and I'm not.

Oh FGS, what about the avoidable deaths being caused by lockdown - as well as all the other factors?`

@AgentCooper

From my experience, DH didn’t see FIL for 6 months last year, obviously out of fear of transmitting the virus because he was 86 and not in great health but not terminally ill. When he went into hospital with trouble with his bowel none of his family could visit and he had no idea how to use a mobile phone or iPad. When he got out of hospital DH started to visit him in the house but keeping a distance.

When he got really ill at the end of last year and was put on end of life care DH was allowed to visit but in full PPE. DH is obviously mourning his dad but one thing he’s really struggling with is all those months he missed with his dad, he would have loved to have taken him down to his home town in the Borders for a last visit. I don’t know what could have been done about this - focus on rolling testing out earlier so people could spend meaningful time together? But yes, DH didn’t just lose his dad, he lost their last year together.

Sorry for your DH’s loss. I feel exactly the same about my dad. He has been diagnosed as terminally ill. He only has months left but his last year of life has been miserable. He has not been able to play golf, meet his friends, see his grandkids, go on holiday. There’s no time left for him after the lockdown is eased. For many elderly they’d rather take the chance of Covid than live their last few months and years like this.

Well @WaxOnFeckOff

I'm going to assume that you mean suicides due to social issues and poor mental health and people dying in hospital through resources being diverted elsewhere, referrals not being made etc because we're all focused on covid?

If restrictions are lifted then the virus numbers will rise again. There is still a significant percentage of people who have not been vaccinated and so the NHS will come under strain due to excess hospitalisations. This will result in deaths not of Covid but caused by covid related issues. i suppose just as you suggest is happening. Opening up doesnt make Covid go away. The NHS still needs to deal with it.

When the virus is under control, however, it is my understanding that the NHS is operating relatively normally for urgent and serious cases. I only have anecdata to back this up though so could be wrong. A lady in work for example was referred for a breast lump last week and only had to wait two days. Smears and other screening all running normally.

Suicides are another thing entirely. I think its a disgrace that mental health services in this country are so poor. When making a decision though and weighing it up I would assume it comes down to numbers. I don't think that therr will in excess of 30,000 suicides of lockdown goes on for another few months. That's not to take away from the horror of losing a loved one to suicide. They have to make their decisions based on something though.

@LoopyGremlin thank you and I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. I hope you can still manage some happy times together.

@kurtrussellsbeard I’m so sorry to hear about your parent too what an endlessly horrible time this has been for us all.

I think it's because a lot of people on this thread are really keen for restrictions to be lifted even though it will almost certainly result in avoidable deaths and I'm not.

I think whenever we lift restrictions there will be "avoidable" deaths because covid is here to stay. I'm not staying they should all stop now but we can't stay like this forever. I'm close to giving up because I have no hope any more. I fought so hard for the life I had off the back of some awful trauma and I can't do it again. The breakdown I had last spring (caused by the covid measures because home is not everyone's safe space and don't get me started on masks) completely trashed my plans for the future and I doubt I'll ever have a proper job again. I'd hope I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum but the dialogue about how easy staying at home is really pisses me off. I hate being at home, I have to check the door is locked around 100 times a day. If I hear a noise I panic and our house is 150 years old...the stairs creak in the sunlight even when no one is near them. I feel trapped. I'm permanently in fight or flight mode.

If everyone over 50 is vaccinated though, then apart from those who refuse, those deaths should be a tiny number.

That's worth a few more months of shit for me.

That's the thing though, for some people it's a "few months of shit
For others it's the edge of a mental health crisis.
It's not for one to say what sacrifices are worth it for all

No @dancemom it's not. The Government are the ones who need to make what is a very difficult call.