Tiers until the end of time

[runningpink]

Quickly putting this up as last thread is full

@PoloMintPatty I do sympathise with you. It must be horrid. On an individual level this is shit for everyone. I would make my own calculated decision in that case. As I've said you can travel to visit vulnerable relatives. I did it with zero guilt during last lockdown.

@MaxNormal I do find the way people casually dismiss potential future covid deaths callous yes. If you fall into that category then make what you will of it.

So you pick the most dismissive example then, of course because it’s harder to argue that crippling mental health, or devastating a persons livelihood or loosing their home, or higher suicide rates, lack of life saving health car or increased domestic abuse on a widespread scale is less important than saving lives.

tbh I think the “all you’re being asked to do is sit on the couch and watch Netflix!” camp have done more harm to the cause of getting people to stick with lockdown than the conspiracy theorists ever could.

@Jellycatspyjamas I just picked one of the things constantly moaned about on here.

But the way the SG are carrying on it's never going to be safe to see granny. I thought this is what the vaccines were for - vaccinate everyone over 50 and the vulnerable and get everything open. But it seems not. I'm starting to wonder why we're bothering.

I certainly agreed with lockdown last year to stop the NHS being overwhelmed because who wants to make decisions about who gets a ventilator and who should just die. I also believe to a certain extent that every life is worth the same as another - someone's life doesn't become worth less just because they're over 80.

But once everyone in high risk age groups and vulnerable groups has been vaccinated we need to open everything up or there will be nothing left to be independent over.

The zero covid plan is just a complete nonsense.

@Jellycatspyjamas you are of course entirely correct about those examples being far more complex in relation to saving lives.

In weighing it up I mean.

@kurtrussellsbeard of course you did, because no one has raised concerns about endemic mental health issues or businesses wiped out or lack of cancer care. You picked an easily dismissed concern to minimise the valid concerns about long term lockdown.

Or is it your view that excess deaths amounting to 1% of the Scottish population is worth removing the human rights of the other 99%.

@WaxOnFeckOff that's horrible.

It's not really related to covid though. If an elderly person was so cut off that they were unable to use a phone or internet or any other technology then I would expect whatever support they already had in place to continue. Whether that's carers or family members.

It's not illegal to care for the vulnerable.

@Jellycatspyjamas broadly speaking yes I do.

What human rights have been removed? The right to assemble always came with a caveat that public health and safety trumped it.

I'm absolutely devastated for people who have lost their livelihoods. I have no answer for that. I do know that I'd rather lose a job than a loved one but I do appreciate it's more complex than that.

But overall yes I think it's shit but for the greater good.

I haven’t seen my gran in a year. She lives 5mins drive away.
Where she stays isn’t classed as a care home but has carers 24/7 in the building and each person has their own wee flat with bedroom/bathroom/kitchen/living room.

If you are able you can leave the building as you please
If you can go in a wheelchair you could meet in the garden at the point when that was allowed.
My gran can’t walk and can’t go in the wheelchairs they have.
The carers haven’t facilitated any FaceTimes or any interaction within the building for my gran. She alongside I think just about every resident has had covid

My mum managed to get in to see her on a couple of occasions and FaceTimed the family. I speak to her on the phone once a week/fortnight as she has nothing to say.

That is no life for someone her age.

What human rights have been removed? The right to privacy and family life, the right to free association, the right to religious expression, the right to education, the right to friendship and play, the right to work and employment, the right to peaceful protest, all of which are enshrined in law in this country.

It is related. I'm pointing out that it's not utopia of granny or grandad sitting taking video calls and "safe" visits from family. Many elderly people are already isolated and covid makes that worse as you can't just stroll in and visit. Many are confused and wonder what they've done to upset people so they are not visiting.

@WaxOnFeckOff

It is related. I'm pointing out that it's not utopia of granny or grandad sitting taking video calls and "safe" visits from family. Many elderly people are already isolated and covid makes that worse as you can't just stroll in and visit. Many are confused and wonder what they've done to upset people so they are not visiting.

If they are vulnerable and need that level of support then you can.

Not if they're in care homes you can't.

@kurtrussellsbeard

Of course they are sacrifices but in my opinion they're worth it.

If FaceTimeing granny saves granny's life until she's vaccinated then that seems like a good pay off to me.

Yes I agree except now Granny is vaccinated that's the difference.......

Yet the original road map was 8 more weeks of lock down followed by tier 3 which is basically still lock down.......

I'm glad there has been back tracking on that to it will be based on numbers but we still have 3 weeks to wait to actually see substantial information.

I'm sorry but we are going to have to learn to live with this virus there is no putting it back in a box or treating it like measles as it mutates. There were 2 variants before it even hit the UK fully. Its a virus it does what it's good at which mutating like the flu does each year.

The right to free association and assembly has a caveat and has always had a caveat for situations like this.
Children and students are still receiving an education.
Young ones don't need to social distance and you can still meet a friend outside.
I'm not sure what privacy has been taken from me but I'm sure you'll let me know!
You can protest just not in a large group.
You do still have the right to employment. Covid has taken away jobs which is bloody awful but not the right to them.

The argument there @reprehensibleme is that they are receiving care. What they don't have of course is that crucial contact with family. Different care homes have handled this differently. Some badly some well. Thankfully next week I think care home visits can start again. Too late for many which is awful but a positive step.

@kurtrussellsbeard what human rights have been removed are you shitting me?!

How about the right to not die alone which thousands of families have been denied due to covid rules only getting a call and it already being too late?
The right to say goodbye?
The care home residents who have been separated from families?
The parents who have to choose between which parent spends time with a sick child in hospital?
Or in my particular case the right for my husband to be there when I had to find out alone that my babies heart had stopped beating at 14 weeks pregnant because he wasn't allowed in the hospital with me due to covid rules in January?!

How's that for no human rights removed

The right to free association and assembly has a caveat and has always had a caveat for situations like this.

If you agree that locking down the whole population for the best part of a year to mitigate against a virus affecting 1% of that population is proportionate use of law. Many don’t.

Children and students are still receiving an education.

No, many didn’t during the first lockdown, and many still aren’t. Not to mention that assessments needed to enable children to access education aren’t happening. Many many children don’t have access to the technology needed for homeschooling, don’t have the capacity to engage in remote learning or need specialist support to do so. And no, they don’t have/haven’t had access to school places.

Young ones don't need to social distance and you can still meet a friend outside.

Yep, that’s been wholly possible in the middle of winter, my kids literally froze playing outside a with a friend despite being wrapped up - and in first lockdown they weren’t allowed to play with a friend, and playgrounds were locked up.

I'm not sure what privacy has been taken from me but I'm sure you'll let me know!

If the police have the right to ask me where I’m going and why, it’s an invasion of my privacy, making it illegal to leave my local authority area allows police to enquire about my private comings and going’s. I’ve seen parents children on the child protection register with breaking lockdown regs cited as one of the concerns, for having people in their home. Being unable to see or touch your loved ones without permission from the government - you don’t think that’s a removal of privacy?

You can protest just not in a large group.

Yep, because single person protests are so effective, collective action outlawed?

You do still have the right to employment. Covid has taken away jobs which is bloody awful but not the right to them.

Yep but to avail yourself of that right you need a working economy, tell performing arts folk that their right to work remains unaffected, or hospitality workers, or parents trying to home school, work from home and undertake caring responsibilities.

You may not like to recognise the decimation of human rights that has happened under our noses, but it’s there. Hard won rights that will be difficult to regain fully.

And those rights sit within our legal system, before you get to the “rights” that living in a free society assumes, like the right to care in death, or not to live in isolation, or to spend your free time as you choose, or to buy “nonessential items” in an actual shop. Not enshrined in law but part of what we consider a free, civilised society.

@Scottishskifun your experiences are devastating and I am very sorry. Of course you should have had support there and I don't have the words for your loss.

The PP mentioned the actual charter of human rights as listed and protected by law and it was those I was responding to. They haven't been removed.

I certainly wasn't suggesting that you should have to go through something like that. Very sadly the list of things you give aren't protected by law although maybe they should be.

No you can't. Hospitals don't allow visitors etc. Care homes the same. Also they've been terrified by NS etc.

And that's if they are reasonably local anyway. I couldn't phone my mum in hospital and even the TV was a pay per View and extortionate.

Right to assembly: yes I agree with it as I've said.

Right to education: if your child isn't receiving an education then you must contact the school or local authority to complain. There are places in school for vulnerable kids and technology available or kids to use.

Right to protest: most normal protests don't require large assemblies. The most traditional ones have always been petitions, letters to MPs etc. You could add social media campaigns (us for them for example)

Right to friendship: I mean people do go out in the cold it's not completely ridiculous.

Right to privacy: no I don't think not being able to see loved ones is a removal of privacy. The police have always been able to stop and ask you stuff. You don't have to answer. There might of course be consequences to that. It's not a privacy matter though.

Right to employment: the economy and the structure of working may change, there may be fewer jobs available but you still have the right to apply for them. If you cannot achieve employment the you can access the benefits system (this is completely shit btw I'm just saying your rights haven't been removed but some opportunities have).

I don't think it's great but it's factually untrue to say our human rights have been removed.

The quality of our experience may have been eroded but our rights haven't been removed.

@WaxOnFeckOff you didn't specify hospitals and care homes in the post.

If they are in hospital or care homes then they are receiving care. What they are not getting is family contact.

Care homes have facilitated that in some ways with FaceTime, phone calls and window visits as have hospitals to an extent.

Care homes can receive visitors as of next week and hospital patients sadly will fall by the wayside. This has always been the case as a result of transmissible diseases. I lost count of how many times my parent's ward was shut due to norovirus. It's shit.

It's sad that some people live far away from their parents but I'm not sure how that's anyone's fault. It's just a situation people find themselves in.