Tiers until the end of time

[runningpink]

Quickly putting this up as last thread is full

There are plenty countries with low figures that aren't relatively remote islands. It doesn't always have to be about NZ and AUS. Vietnam anyone? And it's not as if NZ and AUS are not reliant on some level of import - they've just managed it really well.

It's a piss poor excuse that we can't control our borders because we need imports. Most countries need imports. We can't control our borders and the flow of traffic into this country because we're incapable and inept. Post Brexit the checks for imports into the country which were supposed to be part of the point of Brexit have been cancelled for 6 months because we couldn't do it!

Temperature checks, LFT, alongside heightened use of PPE, further restrictions on the loading and unloading of goods, backed up with an effective track and trace system would have massively reduced any impact from our imports.

They either aren't capable of it or they couldn't be arsed.

@kurtrussellsbeard absolutely. It was possible. But it would have take a rapid, aggressive and joined up approach across this island.

And we couldn't or wouldn't do that.

Of course all deaths matter. I would imagine it's pretty hard for people with vulnerable family members to read every day on here about balance though when Covid has, whether people like it or not, caused a huge number of excess deaths.

If it comes down to someone having an extra six months with their beloved parent or grandparent or vulnerable friend and wee Jimmy not getting to go to swimming club for another couple of months I know what side I'm picking.

Except people weren't able, in the main, to have that extra 6 months or whatever as we were locked down and it was about a bit more that someone missing swimming lessons for a couple of months. Way to minimise the impact...

@kurtrussellsbeard agreed but if your parents only live six months more and you were within driving distance (

Our lockdown restrictions are the tightest in the world. There was a graph confirming that on one of the news programmes a couple of nights ago. I know from friends and family in Europe that they have always been allowed in each other’s houses, shops haven’t closed etc. And yet, our deaths are amongst the highest in the world. Even now, there are still what, almost a thousand cases in Scotland every day? How?? It seems the tighter restrictions don’t work (land borders, or people just don’t abide by the rules?)

I don't really understand your argument there. You do have that time with a loved one. You might live with them. If you don't, you might visit them and go for walks. You might speak to them on the phone and FaceTime.

Are you saying that human bonds are only meaningful if you can sit in each other's living rooms every day? Strange.

My parent was terminally ill during last lockdown. I visited them. If your parents are ill and vulnerable then you can see them. I would assume most would do the same.

If your parent died suddenly and you hadn't seen them then yes I could imagine the guilt would be terrible.

Of course it's not as simple as I suggest but broadly speaking I think that saving lives is more important than opening up service too soon.

@kurtrussellsbeard

I don't really understand your argument there. You do have that time with a loved one. You might live with them. If you don't, you might visit them and go for walks. You might speak to them on the phone and FaceTime.

Are you saying that human bonds are only meaningful if you can sit in each other's living rooms every day? Strange.

Oh come on, surely you know that FaceTime isn’t a decent substitute for in-person human interaction? People actually LIKE being in the same room as each other, hugs, physical contact. It’s a basic part of human interaction, not some selfish frippery. And that’s not counting all the people who can’t really have conversations via FaceTime, like young children and people with dementia in care homes, who have been desperately lonely.

We can think the sacrifices made have been worth it without pretending they weren’t really sacrifices in the first place and all we’ve missed is swimming lessons.

@kurtrussellsbeard

I don't really understand your argument there. You do have that time with a loved one. You might live with them. If you don't, you might visit them and go for walks. You might speak to them on the phone and FaceTime.

Are you saying that human bonds are only meaningful if you can sit in each other's living rooms every day? Strange.

Are you saying seeing grandparents / parents face to face is no different than face time? Sorry but I don't agree

Of course they are sacrifices but in my opinion they're worth it.

If FaceTimeing granny saves granny's life until she's vaccinated then that seems like a good pay off to me.

I also don't understand the attempts to minimise people's struggles through this with the straw man of "little Jimmy's swimming lessons".
It's sneering and unkind.

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's an alternative until it's safe to see granny.

It's unkind to say that a child's swimming lessons aren't as important as someone's life.

Okay then.

No its unkind to dismiss the huge impact this lockdown has had in such a reductive and sneering way.

If FaceTimeing granny saves granny's life until she's vaccinated then that seems like a good pay off to me.

Except it’s not until she’s vaccinated is it? Even with vaccination were still expected to have restrictions well into summer. I’ve not seen my in laws for over a year now, my dad has been stuck on an island 200 miles away for 5 months now, I’ve not seen him since summer. That isn’t changing any time soon despite vaccination.

@kurtrussellsbeard

It's unkind to say that a child's swimming lessons aren't as important as someone's life.

Okay then.

No, people are saying that the harms of lockdown are far, far more than missed swimming lessons, and it comes across as sneery and unkind of you to pretend otherwise.

I think lockdown was worth it, as the lease worst option. I can do that without pretending like it’s not still a very bad option for a lot of people.

@kurtrussellsbeard

Of course they are sacrifices but in my opinion they're worth it.

If FaceTimeing granny saves granny's life until she's vaccinated then that seems like a good pay off to me.

But she is now. They both are (in our case) which I'm very thankful for. So what's changed for us and our families? Nothing. Nothing at all.

If one of them dies tomorrow (hopefully not) then we haven't seen them for months. I'm painfully aware that my kids haven't seen them (in RL) for months.

We all live in Scotland. I'm frustrated now that we can't see them. They have been notionally protected but still we can't go. If either dies (for any reason, covid isn't the only thing out there) the guilt will be horrendous.

*It's unkind to say that a child's swimming lessons aren't as important as someone's life.

Okay then.*

No, it’s unkind to boil everyone’s very restricted life down to missing a child’s swimming lesson, but I suspect you know that.

LEAST worst option. As in, it’s the best of two horrible alternatives, but it is still pretty horrible.

Well actually Max I think it's unkind to keep suggesting that things should open up more rapidly when SAGE anticipates in excess of 30,000 covid related deaths still should that happen.

We all have different opinions and value different things clearly.

@Jellycatspyjamas of course I know that but I can't go through every example.

kurtrussellsbeard clearly you're a great humanitarian and I'm just callous. Well done.

@kurtrussellsbeard

It's unkind to say that a child's swimming lessons aren't as important as someone's life.

Okay then.

On the other hand, it's baffling to mention 100k dead people in the context of sticking with restrictions for a few more months

You do realise as well that many many elderly people do not have access to the Internet and smart devices and would be in able of using them even if they did?

When my mum died she'd been in hospital for months, in a single room, no access to Internet or phone and we could only visit once a week as we were too far away for a y more often and that was pre covid.