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Tiers until the end of time

995 replies

runningpink · 23/02/2021 18:11

Quickly putting this up as last thread is full

OP posts:
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17
kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 18:57

Do you hear yourself?

This is a democracy. Your excessive annoyance at allowing people to vote in a referendum is bizarre.

I couldn't give a shit if you respect me or don't. You don't know me.

That is not in any circumstance a legally binding promise that there would never be another referendum. It's language designed to emphasise the importance of the event and encourage voter turnout.

If it has the power you say it does then someone will be able to use it to block another referendum. Then you'll have no worries.

I've shifted no goalposts. I knew Alex Salmond said it although I was unaware it was in that document. I saw him say it in an interview.

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 18:57

@anon444877

A referendum every time the polls look to go our way would've been closer.
Or, you know, when there's a significant material change like Brexit 🤷🏻‍♀️
StatisticallyChallenged · 24/02/2021 19:05

@kurtrussellsbeard

Do you hear yourself?

This is a democracy. Your excessive annoyance at allowing people to vote in a referendum is bizarre.

I couldn't give a shit if you respect me or don't. You don't know me.

That is not in any circumstance a legally binding promise that there would never be another referendum. It's language designed to emphasise the importance of the event and encourage voter turnout.

If it has the power you say it does then someone will be able to use it to block another referendum. Then you'll have no worries.

I've shifted no goalposts. I knew Alex Salmond said it although I was unaware it was in that document. I saw him say it in an interview.

Aye ok 👌
Dinosauratemydaffodils · 24/02/2021 19:10

Are you guys tempted now or too concerned about disrupting the children?

Dh is definitely tempted. I'm not sure. We travelled a lot pre kids when my ptsd was under control and I think he thinks having children in tow won't make any difference.

On the topic of the referendum, even my fil who is Conservative in every sense of the word and Unionist to the core thinks that there has been material change between now and 2014. He just intends leaving if Independence happens/he's expected to pay more money in taxes.

Bytheloch · 24/02/2021 19:22

We will find out in May if the people of Scotland want another referendum.

Such BS- hijacking the Scottish Parliament election for the independence agenda. Abuse of the devolution rights given to Scotland. Total disregard for the economic hell and mental health issues impacting the country right now. What a race to the bottom we’re now in.

blowinahoolie · 24/02/2021 19:32

This thread has went all political 😱

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 19:32

@Bytheloch hardly.

There's an Independence Party. If they win then you'd be mad not to see that as a mandate for a referendum. Exerting your democratic right to vote for who you like is an abuse of devolution rights? Really?

Elvesaremagic · 24/02/2021 19:53

I think there are plenty of people who vote SNP who are not mad keen on a referendum or Indy. Let’s face it, the SNP with their grievance politics are good at getting cash from the UK government, given in the cain hope that it will stop them whining. The Barnett formula is a pot of gold.

What I would like to see is an Independence Party with a leader that is not mired in corruption and an honest “laying all cards face up on the table” economic plan for independence. It’s the current lying and magic money tree that riles me. They are playing us for fools. Hopefully the SNP will get swept away with this current scandal and an honest, decent, Independence Party can emerge.

And as to who (non-SNP) to vote for in the next election, I have written to MSPs on a range of issues, and it’s the ones that are most helpful and responsive that get my vote.

StarryEyeSurprise · 24/02/2021 19:57

FACTCHECK

It was claimed Nicola Sturgeon and the former first minister used the phrase 'once in a lifetime opportunity'

FACT CHECK

It was claimed Nicola Sturgeon and the former first minister used the phrase 'once in a lifetime opportunity'

WHAT'S THE CLAIM?

In 2014, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP agreed publicly that the independence referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime vote. So, there should not be another referendum for at least 40 years, even if the SNP wins another mandate in 2021 – various statements from Boris Johnson, Alister Jack and Jackson Carlaw.

THE DOORSTOP ANSWER

It is true that during the independence referendum campaign, both Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon used the phrase “once in a lifetime opportunity” or “once in a generation opportunity” to define the political stakes facing the Scottish electorate.

Note the foreword written by Alex Salmond to the Scottish Government’s independence White Paper (Scotland’s Future, 26 November 2013): “The debate we are engaged in as a nation is about the future of all of us lucky enough to live in this diverse and vibrant country. It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland - a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.”

However, it is abundantly clear from the context of this statement (and with others like it) that Salmond is not agreeing to some alleged, one-off constitutional device – to be used once then locked away in a cupboard for 40 years. Rather he is encouraging the Scottish electorate to seize a particular opportunity (“a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland”) to oppose austerity and make a fairer Scotland.

Nothing in this statement suggests Salmond is agreeing to close down opportunities in the future to oppose austerity or Brexit, if necessary, and no reasonable person could read that into the quote.

THE POSITION OF THE SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT WHITE PAPER

The Scottish Government White Paper states: “It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity.” Taken out of context, this could be read as the SNP Government agreeing that there could only be one referendum on independence for “a generation” (Scotland’s Future, Q&A 557). However, when read in context, the meaning is different.

The entire quote reads: “The Edinburgh Agreement states that a referendum must be held by the end of 2014. There is no arrangement in place for another referendum on independence. It is the view of the current Scottish Government that a referendum is a once-in-a-generation opportunity. This means that only a majority vote for Yes in 2014 would give certainty that Scotland will be independent”.

In other words, the intent of this passage is to bring to the attention of the electorate that no arrangement had been sanctioned by the Conservative Government for another referendum – or for a dispute resolution mechanism. This lack of a procedure for a second consultation becomes crucial if the vote was disputed or very close.

So, the passage stands not as a timetable rejecting a second vote for a generation. Rather it is an explicit warning to pro-independence voters that securing a majority on September 18 was vital, least the constitutional question be kicked into touch by a London administration. The necessity for such a warning has been proven correct by subsequent events.

VIEW OF EXPERTS PRIOR TO FIRST REFERENDUM

In fact, prior to the 2014 referendum, there was a very public debate on the constitutional propriety and political possibilities of a repeated vote – especially if the result of the September 18 poll was close. The day before the referendum, The Guardian published a long piece on the subject including interviews with Vernon Bogdanor, generally reckoned to be the foremost living scholar on the British constitution.

Bogdanor is research professor at the Institute for Contemporary British History at King's College London and Professor of Politics at the New College of the Humanities. He is also emeritus professor of politics and government at the University of Oxford and emeritus fellow of Brasenose College, Oxford.

According to The Guardian, Bogdanor thought “a second vote after a No was not impossible”. Bogdanor offered a variety of scenarios that could trigger a second referendum on independence. First, he suggested that if there was a close No in 2014 but the SNP won “a big majority in [the Holyrood elections] in 2016” (ie a mandate) then the first minister “could say there's an irresistible force in Scotland".

Second, Bogdanor proposed a novel scenario: "Suppose [independence] negotiations aren't complete by March 2016, and, in May 2016 suppose Labour or a Labour-LibDem coalition gets in [in Scotland], it might say the terms are unacceptable and there should be a second referendum”. In other words, the No side could trigger a second vote.

Bogdanor summed up the situation pithily: "As Disraeli said: 'Finality is not the language of politics.'" The point here is that the possibility of a second referendum was clearly aired prior to the September vote.

VIEW OF SMITH COMMISSION

On September 19 2014 – the day after the referendum - prime minister David Cameron announced that Lord Smith had agreed chair an all-party commission to decide on increased devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament; ie to implement the so-called “Vow” made by the leaders of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat parties made on the eve of the referendum. On 27 November 2014 the Smith Commission published its consensus report.

Chapter 2, section 18 of the final report clearly states: “It is agreed that nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose”. This unanimous verdict of the Smith Commission was an implicit agreement that a second referendum vote was constitutionally valid. It is hard to see the necessity of publishing such a finding if the members of the Smith Commission – a bare two months after the first vote – thought the matter had been kicked into the long grass for a human lifetime to come.

FACT-CHECK RATING: FALSE AND DELIBERATELY MISLEADING

OldRailer · 24/02/2021 20:03

Who wrote that?

(A generation does not mean a human lifetime.Confused)

StatisticallyChallenged · 24/02/2021 20:03

Congratulations on copying and pasting from the National.

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 20:04

Great post @StarryEyeSurprise 👏🏻

Apologies @blowinahoolie I didn't start it but I definitely contributed to it!

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 20:06

What does it matter if she copied and pasted it.
It's still informative. Hmm

WaxOnFeckOff · 24/02/2021 20:07

Yep, so a fact check on something that wasn't being discussed....Hmm

A generation I guess is something between 20ish to 30ish years?

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 20:08

It was being discussed.

OldRailer · 24/02/2021 20:11

Generation usually taken to mean the time for a new generation to teach adulthood.

Do the National think it's three score years and ten? That would explain their worries.

WaxOnFeckOff · 24/02/2021 20:12

A generation was being discussed, not a lifetime.

Bytheloch · 24/02/2021 20:13

I’d rather have a doze dose of cystitis whilst sitting atop Arthur’s Seat mid January, slurping diet Irn Bru and playing Jedward’s greatest hits on repeat, than read what you’ve just posted.

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 20:13

@WaxOnFeckOff

A generation was being discussed, not a lifetime.
🤣👍🏻
blowinahoolie · 24/02/2021 20:28

Looking forward to an independent Scotland one day and hope it comes to fruition, but would be voting to ditch SNP at the polls at the earliest opportunity. Their manifesto aims would be achieved by then anyway so would be a pointless party.

Thanks StarryEyeSurprise. That was an informative piece 👌

blowinahoolie · 24/02/2021 20:30

SNP, in my opinion, are just a means to an end🤷

kurtrussellsbeard · 24/02/2021 20:46

Agreed @blowinahoolie

blowinahoolie · 24/02/2021 20:53

Getting back on topic though, I would say the whole of this sorry situation of lockdown until April/May is rubbish. No one is winning here. But it has been really disappointing to read negative views of the FM on this thread just because of this situation. She didn't create it to wreak havoc on all of our lives, neither did any other person governing a country. It's difficult, but try and gather some perspective on this and realise being locked down is so we can finally move on with our lives when it's safe to do so.

Scottishskifun · 24/02/2021 21:05

Ummmmm except the FM is aiming for a elimination strategy which the scientists and even Jason Leitch explain will be very difficult to achieve. Meanwhile we are all supposed to say jee thanks for more little scraps I can walk with another family in the pissing rain or yay go and get a non essential click and collect.....

Nope. I don't agree with an elimination strategy I agree with a vaccination programme and rolling it out quickly then learning to live with the virus!

Scottishskifun · 24/02/2021 21:06

But in good news I've started planning a spa weekend break in England for end of May time!