Guilt Free Railing 2

[WouldBeGood]

New thread, imaginatively titled.

not that's what depresses me most about the snp other than the othering of ruk, the answer's always in the back of the book, it's politics and PR dressed up as science.

Oh, and I can't remember which thread I was on, but DS got his excusal from Jury duty so he's chuffed.

I'm beginning to wonder what kind of country this is. It just seems the epitome of policy based evidence making, and it is really, really depressing me.

I think it just shows how badly run we are right now. Very manipulative

@WaxOnFeckOff

Oh, and I can't remember which thread I was on, but DS got his excusal from Jury duty so he's chuffed.

Oh, great news! Good for him.

@WaxOnFeckOff

How did they select people and also ensure that they weren't all supporters of the SNP? or did they?

There was a random selection of people from the electoral roll I think. 1500 invites were sent out, and 300odd responded and those were selected to make a panel representative of sex, age, ethnicity and SMID grouping, and from each regional electoral list area. Not sure if political affiliation was controlled for!

So they asked less than 1% of the adult population to participate?

I don't have any issues with the idea of citizens' panels, and I don't expect them all to agree with me or anything, and I don't care that they had Devi Sridhar talking to them - if 'zero covid' is going to be one of the approaches suggested then fine, get her to go and explain what it is she's advocating for.

I do have a bit more of an issue with a citizens' panel recommendation getting held up as 'what the public want', at the same time as the panel's also saying it's concerned that most of the public won't want this and will therefore need convincing. Especially when what it's recommending is continued harsh restrictions on everyday freedoms at least to some level.

And I have nothing against the MNer who was on the panel either but, come on, surely we're allowed to criticise what the panel came out with without being accused of being oh so horribly mean?

And for all I know the Great Barrington Declaration people are lovely souls who are very helpful and great company as well, but I think the recommendation they put their name to is a bad idea that will cause a lot of harm. Likewise, advocating elimination measures and continued restrictions post-vaccine.

god if SG goes for the total elimination approach my dad will lose what patience and sanity he has left. he really hates lockdown and hates the SNP even more. We'll never hear the end of it.

For the SG to have one approach and rUK another will just be hellish.

She probably thinks she's got that many supporters that she can get away with doing whatever the hell she likes.

She's not Jacinda, and this isn't NZ. I think Jacinda's approach will come back to bite her because she can't do it forever and cases will rise there as a result.

I don't think they actually will go for elimination, in the end. I think that within a month or so, we'll start seeing really very obvious effects of the vaccination programme, and by Easter we'll have most of the JCVI 1-9 categories vaccinated, and the national conversation will pivot right away from how we must stop covid at all costs to pushing governments to asking questions like "but why can't I hug my dad if we've both been vaccinated and so has everyone else we live with?"

I also think that faffing around with 'elimination strategies' pretending we can wind the clock back to February last year is going to undermine the vaccination and lockdown restrictions. Because I am usually very good and follow all the rules and won't dash off abroad to hug my dad tomorrow. But if the government tell me that even when everyone's vaccinated, even when the NHS has no chance of being overwhelmed, I still won't be able to go abroad to hug my dad because of the possibility of more strains that don't even exist yet - then a) I'm not going to trust their messaging in the future when they're clearly moving the goalposts, and b) I'm not waiting any longer to hug my family.

also I think NZ will open up its borders once its population has been vaccinated (they haven't ever pretended otherwise), and a lot of the zero covid advocates here will be saying "but of COURSE it was only temporary, we didn't EVER suggest continued restrictions after vaccination, whatever are you talking about?" - but I have got somewhat jaded now!

Aha @NotAnActualSheep I was on the other thread. You have said more articulately what I was trying to say re the controls around the group selection.

@GoldenOmber

I don't have any issues with the idea of citizens' panels, and I don't expect them all to agree with me or anything, and I don't care that they had Devi Sridhar talking to them - if 'zero covid' is going to be one of the approaches suggested then fine, get her to go and explain what it is she's advocating for.

I do have a bit more of an issue with a citizens' panel recommendation getting held up as 'what the public want', at the same time as the panel's also saying it's concerned that most of the public won't want this and will therefore need convincing. Especially when what it's recommending is continued harsh restrictions on everyday freedoms at least to some level.

And I have nothing against the MNer who was on the panel either but, come on, surely we're allowed to criticise what the panel came out with without being accused of being oh so horribly mean?

Totally agree, especially your middle paragraph. It's almost evangelical, that only the enlightened can possibly understand why we all need to wear sackcloth and ashes, and we have to convince people that they are sinful so deserve it. Or something.

There can be a case for "encouraging" people to undertake behaviours that are a bit of a pain, or a bit different, or a bit technical so people may not understand them, for "the greater good" (use of non gas domestic heating, for example, to decarbonise home heating). But that's where there is no alternative, where the change is ultimately an unarguable benefit to the householder specifically and society at large, and there is a consensus amongst experts that natural reticent human behaviour is a real barrier to change. To encourage such unpleasant and unnatural change to our permanent way of life, where there is no guaranteed benefit (alongside the vaccine, at least) and demonstrable harm seems perverse.

@NearWildHeaven

Aha *@NotAnActualSheep* I was on the other thread. You have said more articulately what I was trying to say re the controls around the group selection.

Thanks! But I don't feel articulate. I feel very fume-ey.

Good news to go to sleep on 😊

That is all going in the right direction.

I needed that, as I'm sure we all do. Thanks @WouldBeGood

Yes I saw that on Twitter.

Such great news 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

Fingers crossed we get out this soon 🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞

That is good! I needed to see that.

good news BUT we need everyone done.

With any luck, we'll all be done by the autumn.

@GoldenOmber

I don't think they actually will go for elimination, in the end. I think that within a month or so, we'll start seeing really very obvious effects of the vaccination programme, and by Easter we'll have most of the JCVI 1-9 categories vaccinated, and the national conversation will pivot right away from how we must stop covid at all costs to pushing governments to asking questions like "but why can't I hug my dad if we've both been vaccinated and so has everyone else we live with?"

I also think that faffing around with 'elimination strategies' pretending we can wind the clock back to February last year is going to undermine the vaccination and lockdown restrictions. Because I am usually very good and follow all the rules and won't dash off abroad to hug my dad tomorrow. But if the government tell me that even when everyone's vaccinated, even when the NHS has no chance of being overwhelmed, I still won't be able to go abroad to hug my dad because of the possibility of more strains that don't even exist yet - then a) I'm not going to trust their messaging in the future when they're clearly moving the goalposts, and b) I'm not waiting any longer to hug my family.

Totally agree with this

And heard on the news Boris and other countries are having a meeting to handover excess vaccine doses to poorer countries - that's more useful than a zero covid strategy.

@anon444877 I’m all for that as long as they’re not going to do “vaccine passports” to go anywhere.

Exactly, that would be a dystopian development and terribly unfair too - who do we think has worse access to healthcare around the world?