Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

Yes it was the middling salaries that didn't do so well under the Scottish system. We were looking at the point in time where the threshold for payment was lower in Scotland. So glad to see that's equalised at least.

@WaxOnFeckOff

I've been through the figures - the interest rates in England are much higher and if you're in a graduate job / decent salary you're paying a hell of a lot more over 30 years in England than you are in Scotland.

The rate you pay at back at is the same 9% so if they are on similar salaries and it's written off after 30 years in both places then you aren't paying back any more regardless of what the interest rate is. Up until this coming year, in Scotland you would be paying it back starting at a much lower salary.

There is potential to be paying back more in England if you are on a very high salary and therefore pay it back in less than 30 years.

I'm referencing the interest rate on the loan.

Yes check moneysavongexpert website.

I'm referencing the interest rate on the loan.

Yes you are, but I'm saying the repayments are the same so if you don't ever repay it then it doesn't matter what the interest rates are.

Yes you need to look at actual repayments it can be worth running a few different salaries through to see how it would work in reality.

yep, i'm sure there will be winners and losers but it's really not as straightforward as you would think.

I think you should look at the student loans more like tax rather than debt. Most people won't pay it off so the total amount and interest are irrelevant.
What matters is how high it is in proportion to salary and if the degree you get is going to massively improve said salary. And I guess also if going to uni is a worthwhile life experience that will broaden your mind!

The debate about tuition fees is never folded in with the fact that it's a huge amount spent on the most able and is it the best overall use of the money?
Where is the corresponding investment in non university routes?

I agree with @waxonfeckoff about students not always being aware that other students from the rest of the UK/International got into courses with lower grades, especially if the Scottish students just head off to their second choice Uni. The news article I heard re Queens Belfast where there are similar problems was more stark because young people in NI sit A levels the same as in England and therefore it was more obvious that lower offers were given to the English students who went over there.

@WaxOnFeckOff

I'm referencing the interest rate on the loan.

Yes you are, but I'm saying the repayments are the same so if you don't ever repay it then it doesn't matter what the interest rates are.

Gosh I must have been tired last night.

1. There's actually no repayments on a loan for tuition fees in Scotland, as they don't exist ( thus we don't need to compare interest rates or periods before cancelling between the two countries).

1. It most certainly does matter re interest rates on a loan.

Looking at the English model and using my teaching salary as an example of a decent paying, graduate job - even if most of the loan is paid off over 30 years, that's still going to equate to around £40k paid back for teaching only (versus zero in Scotland).

I'm going to hide this thread now as I need to get on!

And what do the students live on in Scotland while studying? Fresh air? Most will accrue a minimum of £19k maintenance loan. The more deprived will have another 4k onto that.

Then probably overdrafts on top if they don't have parental support.

If you know more about this than Martin Lewis though then maybe you are in the wrong game?

I worry that the repayment period for loans may be extended so that instead of loans getting written off after 30 years they may continue to retirement age. Obviously they can't do that to loan contracts that people have already taken out but there's nothing to say the rules will not be changed for future loans.

The loan for living expenses isn't a given though. I'm sure most folk do take it but I had a job and so did loads others I went to uni with. I suppose the point is that you don't have to take it whereas if you had to pay for tuition fees it would be more likely you would be forced to take out a loan.

My point is that contrasting Scottish free fees with English students paying full fees sounds fantastic. However IN MANY REAL LIFE CIRCUMSTANCES it has been irrelevant.🤷 Counterintuitive I know.

I'm retired now from teaching in secondary schools in Scotland.

I feel strongly that standards have declined over many years and long before SNP government. However, they have continued the decline.

Complacency is a big cause of the problems. I remember many years ago an article in the Scottish press describing primary education as the jewel in the crown of Scottish education, and thinking what nonsense that was even then.

The pp who commented on yes men/women rising to the top is so right. They create little empires for themselves where criticism or questioning is not welcome.

There is a lack of teaching of basic principles, spoon-feeding to a damaging extent as teachers are held responsible for exam results, and lots of ways of improving the pass rate without improving real achievement.

Because of the lack of better-qualified candidates, teachers in secondary subjects are being accepted with qualifications which wouldn't have been considered thirty years ago.
There were always poor teachers as well as good, lazy as well as hard-working, but too many of the young teachers entering the profession in recent years have a shocking lack of subject knowledge and a lack of awareness of the huge gaps in their knowledge. They expect to be promoted within a few years of starting their career and probably will be. I feel sorry for the dedicated and able young teachers who have to work with them.

I could go on. It's very depressing because the future of our country depends on a sound education system and most so-called solutions seem to lead us further away from that.

It's definitely for about lower offers made to rUK students compared to Scottish students. I did a bit of research when DS was applying to St Andrews, freedom of information requests show its a three tier system internationals have it easiest, then rUk then Scottish students.

@Wbeezer

It's definitely for about lower offers made to rUK students compared to Scottish students. I did a bit of research when DS was applying to St Andrews, freedom of information requests show its a three tier system internationals have it easiest, then rUk then Scottish students.

Mum level 10! Haha that's amazing. Not your findings obviously but your smeddum.

Apparently the Scottish Parliament has just voted to instruct the Scottish government to release the OECD report into education immediately. A key figure in education sees no reason why it should be suppressed until after the election. Do we think the SNP will actually allow its publication before we go to the polls, or will they ignore this instruction too?

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

Apparently the Scottish Parliament has just voted to instruct the Scottish government to release the OECD report into education immediately. A key figure in education sees no reason why it should be suppressed until after the election. Do we think the SNP will actually allow its publication before we go to the polls, or will they ignore this instruction too?

I reckon they'll ignore and there will be a legal fight which the taxpayer will fund and it'll be delayed until after the election anyway and then they'll say sorry, we will do better (nothing to see here) and SNP fans will carry on supporting them. Remember, Nicola said to judge her on Education. Have we judged enough?

Yep they'll stall and delay and it won't be released until after the election. The SNP really don't do transparency do they?

It's obvious why they don't want it released. Yet the cult will still vote for them.

Perhaps that's when Swinney will resign/retire and a new broom in June is all set out.

@kurtrusselsbeard i didn't do the freedom of information requests just a bit of googling out of curiosity and some lurking on The Student Room, needed to find out how realistic DS2's chances were.

I remember when I was in primary school we had spmg books for maths and you worked through it at your own pace so in p7 you’d have kids on green books, orange books or purple books depending on their level. Reading wise we chose a book to read to the teacher each day from any level we wanted. It was definitely less class learning for maths and literacy and more individual

I was taught like that too in the eighties. Sorry, but it is really lazy “teaching,” although I don’t even think you can call it that. If you’re good at something, you’ll be fine. If you struggle, you’ll be stuck on the green book for years. The teacher will only get involved with you if there’s a problem, otherwise you just coast along. If you don’t feel like pushing yourself, you won’t progress as you could.

I am saddened to see all the negativity to teaching a range of maths strategies. I think it’s important to teach a range of strategies - different children learn in different ways. Then you let them choose the one that works for them. I also think it’s important to be able to speak about how they found an answer and what strategy they like - this doesn’t need to take hours, just a few minutes of a lesson.

I am well aware the CfE is too broad though and imperfect in many ways. I detest the complete free play/choice thing in nurseries, with little/no expectation that they will complete a particular task and are allowed to refuse or leave in the middle of a task. Does children a total disservice. It is for this reason that P1 and now P2 have had to become more play orientated. We cannot teach as we used to as we are also teaching many of them how to write their name and sit on their bottom to listen to a full story!

@ItsAllComingBackToMeNow
For me some of the negativity about the maths strategies is that it is downright confusing for younger kids who may already be scared about maths or already think they aren't good at maths. And I hear this a lot among my son's P3 peers. Primary school children need to understand one method - there is no need to know 5 different ways to get the same answer. More emphasis should be given to place value as this is fundamental to teaching maths (and knowing place value up to a hundred doesn't really help). Based on the maths DS has had as part of home learning, it is unforgivable that so many of the maths tasks have had errors or mistakes in them. I would prefer teachers got the basic maths right rather than worry about teaching 5 different strategies.

Maybe reframe negativity as feedback.