Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

Please could we call ‘free’ university education by its correct term which is taxpayer funded.

From our close family and friends in Scotland, 4 young people would have been encouraged to explore the possibility or apply for Oxbridge had they attended the school and 6th Form college that my children did in England.

All of them at state schools ( and not all the East Ren/ Jordanhill type of school)
All of them hugely bright, talented and high achieving and yet the prospect of Oxbridge wasn’t ever on the table for them.

In part, this was due to the fallacy of the ‘free’ fees in Scotland but also because of what seems to be quite a restricted world view and almost a fear of anything too different or challenging.

Oxbridge is absolutely not the be all and end all but I’ve also heard Scottish family and friends dismiss St Andrews for many of the same reasons.
A perception of too many wealthy English students.

and the news this morning? Least educated and youngest cohorts worst off due to covid. 'Free' tuition is a huge subsidy to the middle class.

Edinburgh is the only one I've found that publishes it's offer/acceptance rates and splits it between SCotland/EU, rUK and Overseas non UK, It makes sobering reading for many courses.

www.ed.ac.uk/student-recruitment/admissions-advice/admissions-statistics

It's the fallacy that this system helps DC to go to Uni that gets me. It narrows their mindset, restricts the spaces available and the maintenance amounts discourage students from living away from home at all. They have thankfully increased the earning amount at which it starts to get paid back to equal rUK as they were starting to pay it back much earlier in their career. (c19k rather than c24k)

Many students never repay back what they've borrowed anyway so the size of the debt can be irrelevant. They'd be paying the same per month regardless of whether they had £50k debt or £15k, it's just in one case they'd be paying it for longer if they were still earning above the threshold.

I am worried about the restricted spaces. I heard a news article on the radio a while back which talked about the same problem in Northern Ireland and Queens University, Belfast. Applicants from NI had to get much higher grades in some subjects to be admitted than students from E&W.

@WaxOnFeckOff

As I said above, this is going to change drastically from this year on, due to Brexit.

Local ie Scottish resident applicants, and the tiny handful of applicants who are UK nationals / EU residents AND can prove previous residence in Scotland, will be the only applicants to benefit from the taxpayer-funded uni places this year. Everyone else will either be paying international fees or rUK fees of £9250 pa. The Scot Gov has said that all the money saved on not subsidising fees to EU students will go into the higher education sector, including some scholarships to allow outstanding EU candidates to apply.

@applesandpears33

Anecdotally I have heard the same re. Edinburgh Uni. An Italian girl I know of who's applying this year as an international student (and paying fees of up to £28K pa) has been told she only needs to get 15/20 in her Baccalaureate. In previous years, students we've had applying to the same course but as fully-funded EU students, have had to get 17 or 18/20 to get in. Unis are so cash-strapped , of course they are going to make it easier for students bringing £30k a year with them, rather than £1.1K pa.

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing @miimblemomble

I think we are just making different points. I'm glad that the money spent on EU students is getting but into HE as it's been sorely neglected for some years.

£28k per annum for tuition?! Yikes.

It's been easier for rUK and non EU students to get in for years as the Unis need the fees. I'm not surprised and don't blame them. The current fees paid by the govt are not enough

Fees paid by scotgov are just shy of £2k pa

@WaxOnFeckOff
You are correct, I missed your point. I hadn't ever looked at it from the inside TBH as I am on the outside atm (resident in the EU with a child that talks fondly of going to Edinburgh Uni in the future!) .

So the provision of "cheap" places for local Scottish students makes it harder for them to choose to go elsewhere because they don't want to incur debt / can't afford it - thus limiting their life choices? And at the same time it makes it even harder for the Universities to get the income they need - because they are "forced" to accept a certain number of students who only bring in £1.1k each pa? So they need to attract even more international students to lift their incomes. Is that right?

My sister works at Edinburgh Uni: she's very aware that the international student market is where executive attention is focused, because that is where the money is.

yes, more or less but the tuition paid for Scottish students is closer to £2k (I think £1820) . It's also that for any families where the household income is above £34k, students can only borrow £4750 which doesn't cover rent in most places, so you have families on a reasonably modest income that need to support by quite a few £k if their DC go to a uni that isn't close to home. There is no account taken of whether the family is supporting more than 1 student or has 3 younger dependents or whatever but for each student is expected to pay out approx £3k (after they've paid tax) per student to bring them to the same level that a more deprived student would be able to access.

So, a family earning 34 from one parent it would be about £26k take home excluding any pension contributions. If they have 2 at uni, then they would be expected to give out £6k to support them and leaves £20k to support the rest of the family including, housing and food etc.

And students have very limited options for borrowing more and jobs are not necessarily easily come by, especially at the moment.

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to borrow more for their maintenance.

@miimblemomble
You're an island of sense in a sea of grumbling.

The education system isn't perfect in Scotland, I know that very well as I work in it and have recently had both my children through state schooling and 'free' Uni places. Both got into their first choice courses and Universities (Edin and Abertay) and both have done well, even my son with autism.

The SG haven't got it all right and the system needs work, but the biggest barrier to pupil learning are the attitudes instilled in them by their parents. I work with so many pupils who can't/don't/won't read a book. Young people who can't do maths because their parents have never helped them or shown them the basics. Children who spend hours each night on social media or games consoles. Kids who got their first phone at 8 years old, who have unrestricted access to Youtube. who, at the age of 12, have never held a knife and chopped a piece of food. These are not isolated experiences, there are a significant number of pupils who struggle to learn because they don't know how to.

When these children under-perform at school, who should we blame? the teachers? The SNP? The Scottish Government?

No, the problems don't just rest on the Scottish Education system - it's a far more pervasive problem which rests firmly on UK policies of the past 50 years.

Atually @miimblemomble, I didn't mean you, I meant to tag @user1471519931 but got my copying messed up.

Absolutely laughable blaming of the “UK” there chocolate. Will the nationalists ever actually blame the current government?!

The current issues facing all children are UK and indeed worldwide. Schoolchildren in England are seeing their attainment improve. We have gone backwards in Scotland under the SNP.

Thank you @Chocolatedeficitdisorder and your post is also full of home truths.

The fact is that experiences are so varied. I have family in England whose children also have varied experiences, 11+, state school, private school, tutoring, parental pressure...so many different factors to take into account. Some kids will thrive, some will not, some will do OK, some parents will be disappointed, some won't care, some will be too caught up on their work, divorce, own health issue to be able to keep on top of it all. It is hard but just blaming the SNP is ridiculous.

I have lived and worked in several different countries and problems are everywhere. There is also a lot to be grateful for. It depends on your perspective.

Universities across the U.K. seem too focussed on attracting international students. Dh is from the Middle East and the number of dcs we've seen go to unis in the U.K. in recent years is astonishing. They also apparently get admitted with lower grades. I'm quite shocked at the dcs I've seen gain places at unis like Durham, Imperial College etc. It's unfair on British students.

I am extremely concerned about my children's education. Like others, I enjoyed primary school and as a child of the 70s was always proud that scottish education was some of the best in the world. I am saddened this is not what my children are experiencing.

The main problems are in my experience huge class sizes. My son has now been in a 33 pupil class for 3 years. At the moment it wavers between 33&34 as there is a DAS child who sometimes also attends the class when not in the DAS department. My daughter also had classes of 33 in her last 2 years at primary. Sometimes in p6 she would just put her head down on the desk and weep at the noise and confusion around her. There are very limited classroom assistants. Children with extreme behavioural problems don't get the support they need. My DD's class was chased around the school playground by a child with a metal bar, whilst the teacher shouted at them to run. Regularly 4 adults are required to curtail/coral a child. And this is a 'nice' school in a reasonable area.

The teachers themselves are very young. This means they are enthusiastic, but inexperienced. Every experienced teacher seems to have thrown in the towel.

I agree with others about the brighest not begin stretched. The quickest way to lower the attainment gap is to bring everyone down to the lowest unfortuately

The focus on scottish themed education. We have done Burns poetry every year for ever it seems. Never any other poetry. My son's reading books are invariably scottish, and in history he is learning about the clearances. He has already done Picts, Scottish clans, Battles of Independance. His topic of bridges focused on scottish bridges only. I don't mind a bit of themes to the learning, but it seems to be Scottish at the expense of anything else. It's so narrow minded

I'm still on the fence about independance,I can see postives and negatives. I used to quite support SNP, I thought they were doing a good job initially. However in the last 10 years its obvious the wheels are coming off, and education is on a steep downwards trend. I don't know what can be done, but I do lay the blame at the SNP door, they have been in power for 20 years and they have noone else to blame

@WaxOnFeckOffthanks for that post about the student loans, i thought about posting the same as I think it's definitely a factor inhibiting students from attending some universities but I was too lazy to look up the exact figures!

Wbeezer - unfortunately I know them off the top of my head but they are fact checkable... :o

I've had a look at the figures for Edinburgh Uni. It really is quite depressing.

@applesandpears33

I've had a look at the figures for Edinburgh Uni. It really is quite depressing.

Yes it is, obviously I'm not targeting Edinburgh specifically, i'm sure other high profile unis are the same but Edinburgh is the only one i can find figures for. I'm on some Uni groups and parents will say that their child has applied for e.g. Durham, Cambridge, Edinburgh etc and maybe just waiting on a reply for Edinburgh and you look up the applied for course and see they have a 75% chance of an offer but a Scottish student might only have 15% chance. They need better results than their counterparts in rUK or international to get an offer and their maintenance doesn't cover their accommodation (though i have heard that some unis will give a bursary to help).

This isn't sour grapes, my DC both have uni places they are delighted with. DC1 applied for and was turned down for Edinburgh but otherwise had 4 unconditional offers including from Glasgow etc. He's currently doing a combined masters with over 90% in everything so far (3rd year), and tbh wouldn't have gone to Edinburgh if he'd offered. He turned down Glasgow as well.

DC2 didn't have the grades to apply to Edinburgh and it wouldn't have suited him either. He is also acing everything so far - he may have done better in school if he'd had his dyspraxia diagnosis earlier than age 17.

Yet the percentage of International students at Scottish and English Universities is nearly the same (only a 3 per cent difference). Are English students being disadvantaged too then? If so , it can't be due to a policy of taxpayer funded tuition.

International students as a whole make up a higher proportion of the student body in Scottish HEIs (22%) than they do for the UK as a whole (19%)

That's not the same as 3% difference as the UK figure will also include students studying in Scotland.

I think the point being made is that rUK and International students make up a higher proportion of the "elite" or more highly rated Universities in Scotland. So home students are less likely to gain a place at Edinburgh or St Andrews for example rather than the university population as a whole. e.g. you are not going to come and pay £30k pa to study in a Uni that doesn't have the prestige, you'll probably stay in your own country/go elsewhere - just depends where you are from. So, competition to get into a prestigious Scottish Uni for Scots who have a limited number of spaces is naturally fierce and results in having to have higher grades than someone applying from rUK or rWorld would need.

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/student-advice/where-to-study/international-students-at-uk-universities

This shows the rates of international students at all UK unis. More than a quarter of students at St Andrews are International but UoWS or Glasgow Cale and many others are around 5%. Uni of H&I is less than 2%