Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

England - 19 per cent International students
Scotland- 22 per cent International students

Of course more elite universities are harder for 'home grown ' students to get into but that's the same the world over and not down to a taxpayer funded tuition policy.

StarryEyeSurprise strikes again with another reasonable explanation👌

Fistly: England - 19 per cent International students
Scotland- 22 per cent International students

No, Scotland 22 % - whole of UK including Scotland 19%

Secondly: There are a strict limitation on the spaces available to home students. Therefore, Scottish students have to exceed the requirements in order to get a space, they have to do better than students who pay more. It's not really that hard is it?

Yes, they'd have to compete anyway, but they'd be more likely to be offered a space if they were paying the same or if places weren't limited as they'd be competing on a level playing playing field.

Scottish education strives for mediocrity. Closing the attainment gap by dragging down achievement.
I have one very bright son, he has been bored and unchallenged since primary 3. He is now in S3 and disillusioned by education, he can get high 90s in a test without even revising. It shouldn’t be that easy.
My other son is more average, needs quite a lot of consolidation in his learning but the jumping from this topic to another to another and back again doesn’t allow for consolidation.
And all the time wasted every January on Scots Language. By all means do it once but every bloody year it goes on. It’s not inclusive, everything is focussed on Scotland- Scottish music, history, politics, geography............SNP brainwashing of young people.

I don’t think there are any winners with the CfE. It’s a load of bollocks! Why there isn’t more made of this by the opposition & press, I don’t know.

I was educated at a grammar school in Northern Ireland and my husband at a grammar in England. We both despair at the quality of education that our children receive.

Yep that's what I aim for as I prepare for another day of teaching - mediocrity.

Well it certainly narrows the attainment gap if everyone is brought down surely? Plus a less educated populace will be less likely to worry about the minor issues of currency/GDP and banking in an independent Scotland. So personally I think the SNP has, for once, been very clever in its dumbing down and general brainwashing if its young people.

Sigh

@ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown me too! Don't forget to throw in the brainwashing! It's not a proper days teaching if I haven't brainwashed a child.

I've attached a table incase it helps.

I'm not comparing Scotland's % to the UK as a whole, I'm comparing Scotland's % to England's. Hence why I wrote England.

I'm comparing the two as one has 0 tuition fees and the other has , well we'll not go into it in too much detail but a heck of a lot more plus higher interest. Two very different models.Yet very similar percentages of international students- 19 % and 22 %.

Your argument was, I think, that the policy chosen in Scotland meant that Scottish students were being disadvantaged and that the 0 tuition policy is bad. Yet when you look at the figures, there's next to no difference in the percentage of International students here when compared to our nearest fee paying neighbour. Hence, I don't agree that home grown students are losing places because we have a 0 tuition fee model.

Those figures make a depressing read @WaxOnFeckOff
I am aware of the issue but this is the first time I have actually seen the figures to support it. Scotland is at risk of a ‘brain drain’ as all its own head south to uni and don’t return.
I live in a well heeled town with a ‘top of the tables’ high school. Kids from the school have been told by staff at Edinburgh uni that they won’t get a place with their postcode.

Some right Debbie Downers on this thread...

Many things.

The fact that the SNP have no checks and balances in them and absolute control over all parts of government and a population that will happily vote them back in no matter what they do means that they can continue to keep failing.

It means no new ideas and no accountability so it just a keeps getting worse.

Nothing really- unfortunately a few people in Scotland hate the snp regardless

@StarryEyeSurprise - thanks for the figures. Looks like some of the rubbish on this thread is just that

"It means no new ideas and no accountability so it just a keeps getting worse."

You can apply this theory to any government, not just the Scottish government.

I don't have a clue about this but I'm very interested to learn. That seems pretty clear @StarryEyeSurprise.

Seems weird to me that free education would be a bad thing 🤷🏻‍♀️

A wise man once told me that if the SNP/NS cured cancer then they'd be attacked for taking money out of funeral directors' pockets. Reading this thread makes that ring true.

Your argument was, I think, that the policy chosen in Scotland meant that Scottish students were being disadvantaged and that the 0 tuition policy is bad. Yet when you look at the figures, there's next to no difference in the percentage of International students here when compared to our nearest fee paying neighbour. Hence, I don't agree that home grown students are losing places because we have a 0 tuition fee model.

That's like comparing apples with oranges. I'm saying that Scottish students are losing out on places at our most prestigious universities because of the tariffs on spaces make it harder for them to get a space and students from other countries are gaining entry with lesser qualifications. Yes, there are plenty of spaces for Scottish students at lower graded universities and in less demand courses, universities and courses that someone from abroad isn't going to come here for.

Glad you think that's ok though.

@blowinahoolie

Some right Debbie Downers on this thread...

Yes, because saint Nicola and the rest of the shambolic crew are sprinkling glitter and joy everywhere with all their successes so why would anyone want to complain?

@Jodhpurs46

Those figures make a depressing read *@WaxOnFeckOff* I am aware of the issue but this is the first time I have actually seen the figures to support it. Scotland is at risk of a ‘brain drain’ as all its own head south to uni and don’t return. I live in a well heeled town with a ‘top of the tables’ high school. Kids from the school have been told by staff at Edinburgh uni that they won’t get a place with their postcode.

What a strange thing for university staff to say to young people. Quite demoralising.

My sister went to Edinburgh. I guess they must have misunderstood her Highland's postcode for somewhere exotic.

Figures from the Scotgov website:

EU students at higher education institutions

International students as a whole make up a higher proportion of the student body in Scottish HEIs (22%) than they do for the UK as a whole (19%). However, a larger proportion of international students in Scotland are from within the EU than is the case for the rest of the UK. This may be a consequence of the different arrangements for tuition fees for EU students in Scotland compared to elsewhere in the UK, as discussed in chapter two of this paper.

www.gov.scot/publications/impact-international-students-scotland-scottish-government-response-migration-advisory-committees/pages/3/

The %tage of UK students in Scottish Unis is pretty irrelevant though isn't it, its the %tage of Scottish students in Scottish Unis that is important, compared with the %tage of English students in English Unis. Cause English students pay higher fees to Scottish Unis compared with Scottish students - not to the same extent as international students - but English students are still a more attractive prospect for Scottish Unis than more Scottish students.

My sister went to Edinburgh. I guess they must have misunderstood her Highland's postcode for somewhere exotic.

Has anyone said that no-one from Scotland goes to Edinburgh Uni?

@WaxOnFeckOff

Your argument was, I think, that the policy chosen in Scotland meant that Scottish students were being disadvantaged and that the 0 tuition policy is bad. Yet when you look at the figures, there's next to no difference in the percentage of International students here when compared to our nearest fee paying neighbour. Hence, I don't agree that home grown students are losing places because we have a 0 tuition fee model.

That's like comparing apples with oranges. I'm saying that Scottish students are losing out on places at our most prestigious universities because of the tariffs on spaces make it harder for them to get a space and students from other countries are gaining entry with lesser qualifications. Yes, there are plenty of spaces for Scottish students at lower graded universities and in less demand courses, universities and courses that someone from abroad isn't going to come here for.

Glad you think that's ok though.

Yes I noticed you included the U of H and I in your evidence for your argument but tried to let that slide. I don't think Skye and Elgin are high on the bucket list of places for international students.

Anyway, I only just got my son down so need to stop for the night so I can do more mediocre lesson prep on William Wallace.

Only joking.

It's Rob Roy this week.

"Only joking.

It's Rob Roy this week."

Thanks for brightening up these threads StarryEyeSurprise🤭😂

That's the case for all universities across the UK. It's a long running joke and it's certainly not unique to Scotland.

Universities are pretty ruthless. They're always going to chase the 💰 and generally that comes from foreign students.

"Yes, because saint Nicola and the rest of the shambolic crew are sprinkling glitter and joy everywhere with all their successes so why would anyone want to complain?"

No Government is perfect. I don't think anyone who supports SNP will agree with all their policies. Same with any party.