Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

@ifitpleasesandsparkles what do you work as in a school? Your take on things is very interesting.

Well it's anecdotes, they're to going to vary wildly from person to person but you can't deny people's experiences. I've got one child who got top marks and went off to St Andrews and one who dropped out before his Highers, one experience doesn't cancel out the other. I
I'm not saying teachers are bad, just that the CfE has, IME, often made it harder, more complicated for teachers to achieve good results and, ironically, there seems to be just as much, if not more, teaching to the exam in the third phase than there was when I was at school. The "skills" they encourage in the earlier phases are not a help for the exams, its like they prioritise one way of working and then expect the kids to suddenly switch to old fashioned swotting in time for exams. Some kids can handle the leap, others flounder.

I don't think people are making things up, I'm certainly not.

@StarryEyeSurprise
@blowinahoolie

A misstep on my keyboard and one extra child attributed to already overpopulated classes does not make my post wrong.

[quote kurtrussellsbeard]@ifitpleasesandsparkles what do you work as in a school? Your take on things is very interesting. [/quote]

I would love to say but it's (and I hate this Mumsnet saying) "outing". I work very closely with teachers all day every day in class. I'm not a learning assistant.

"Every playground disagreement is now mediated by staff and games are banned rather than children being left to sort things out for themselves."

Ah, now this ties in well with what my eldest mentioned about 'King of the Hill' being banned just as he was heading up to S1. It's "too dangerous" so it's no longer allowed.

@ifitpleasesandsparkles I just can't imagine what it is. You must be teacher qualified if you're able to assess lessons so I was thinking HMI maybe but I don't think they'd share your view re restorative conversations etc. Not the point of the thread but I'll be trying to guess this all day!

[quote kurtrussellsbeard]@ifitpleasesandsparkles I just can't imagine what it is. You must be teacher qualified if you're able to assess lessons so I was thinking HMI maybe but I don't think they'd share your view re restorative conversations etc. Not the point of the thread but I'll be trying to guess this all day! [/quote]

My assessment of lessons here is just my own opinions. I don't evaluate teachers in my professional role. I am privy to all the workings of the classroom and heavily involved in planning etc. I work with many teachers and some of them are wonderful. The problem is in the system: the curriculum, the teacher training, the micromanagement of teachers, the stress, the class sizes, societal changes on a wider scale, over reliance on technology... I could go on and on. It all adds up to some drastic changes in education in general over the last 20 years.

I don't mind responding to private messages

I recommend The Coddling of the American Mind to anyone who has concerns in general about education from early years to college/university. An American perspective that sadly rings true in Britain more and more every day.

Everyone on here needs to calm down...

There is a legacy myth about Scottish education which dates back to the times of the Empire. The Church is Scotland had been teaching people to read (the bible mainly) and write so it just so happened that when the Empire took off many Scots (mainly men) were able to get jobs as clerks and then rose up the career ladder and managed to do quite well for themselves despite very humble origins. So let's not put Scottish education on any kind of pedestal here. It's a country full or schools and teachers and urban landscapes and remote countryside with deprivation and affluence and all other kinds of factors, just like any other country.

It is important to say that the Curriculum for Excellence was devised by an independent body of teachers and education experts. In general it is understood that you have to wait about 20 years to see the results of a curriculum - how well do kids perform overall, where are they in terms of critical thought, do they have the keys to find things out for themselves? We have to wait and see.

Lots of complaining about too much focus on Scottish things...I think they are trying to address a previous imbalance as before there was very little being taught about Scottish history. I did the Tudors relentlessly and never learnt a thing about the Picts for example, despite growing up near the a massive Pictish site. Of course you can't cover everything but they are trying to include it more.

Finally I know I won't convince @Babdoc and co but there is lots of SNP bashing because of all kinds of changes they are making to the country etc...well the fact is thank god there is a political party that is actually interested in drafting and implementing legislation and actually trying to bring some change to this country, including trying to tackle sectarianism, trying to tackle alcohol consumption, thinking about free education, introducing the baby box, striving to keep prescriptions free, trying to upgrade infrastructure, building schools, hospitals etc... before this there were decades of stagnancy and I'm afraid the days of a group of old boys getting the night train down from Edinburgh to London, having a few drinks on the way and getting a "good deal" and bringing it back to the Scotland Office are LONG GONE! We are into democracy now, and consultation and it's messy and not everyone will be pleased but what's the alternative?

Schools can only do so much - if you want your kids to do well cultivate a love of learning in your own home, expose them to art, culture, travel, different food, make friends with a family from elsewhere, talk about things, play scrabble, play chess, support the teachers and the school, teach them about mortgages, pensions, interest rates, loans, how the world works, how to budget, meal plan, how to travel cheaply, some basic first aid, how to have a laugh, how to be happy with little, how to take social media with a pinch of salt, how to argue well, how to deal with stress, how to enjoy life. Choose Life. 😜

User1472519931 your last paragraph could be seen as a bit patronising, its so obvious it goes unsaid. Of course education happens at home too, we all teach our kids loads of stuff which is why I think it's justified parents having an opinion on how our children learn (or not). I'm not bothered about schools taking kids to museums etc (although for some kids it would be their only chance) because I'm happy to do that but I'm not happy about having to relearn trigonometry because his Maths teaching has been so inconsistent he has major gaps.

Well i guess if they published the review that they undertook, we could look at that and see how well or not it's doing but that's been delayed and delayed and yes i wonder when it's delayed until - after the election perhaps?

And once again the same people state that everyone else is lying or doesn't know anything as they know best, despite disseminating conjecture as fact and posting part facts intended to only show their own view whilst shouting down anyone who has a different one.

Schools can only do so much - if you want your kids to do well cultivate a love of learning in your own home, expose them to art, culture, travel, different food, make friends with a family from elsewhere, talk about things, play scrabble, play chess, support the teachers and the school, teach them about mortgages, pensions, interest rates, loans, how the world works, how to budget, meal plan, how to travel cheaply, some basic first aid, how to have a laugh, how to be happy with little, how to take social media with a pinch of salt, how to argue well, how to deal with stress, how to enjoy life. Choose Life. 😜

In an ideal world. I have pupils who don't even know what a museum is, who don't have any books in their houses, whose parents are more interested in dealing drugs than spending time with their children........

User, I fell about laughing at your starry eyed fantasy of SNP “achievements”!
Building hospitals? Yes, ones that aren’t fit for purpose, with so many lethal defects in basics like ventilation that they remain unopened.
Free university tuition? Yes, wasting millions a year of taxpayers’ money on free places for EU foreign students. Did you know that a higher percentage of deprived kids go to uni in England, with the loan scheme, than do in Scotland- because your much vaunted free places are restricted in number.
But carry on supplying free baby boxes to millionaires, and wasting millions on failed ferry projects, bailing out Bifab, and being so woke that you favour putting male rapists In women’s prisons if they simply claim to identify as one.
Meanwhile Scottish education is going down the toilet.

Yes Babdoc, i think about university places every time there's a news article about really good sixth form colleges in places like Tower Hamlets sending double figures numbers of kids to Oxbridge. Meanwhile St Andrews is chock a block with well off International students and Scottish students from deprived backgrounds are like unicorns (and feel self concious about speaking in local accents).

babdoc bravo, bravo

@Wbeezer even back when I was applying for uni (late 80s), St Andrew's had an off putting reputation of being for English public school students. It seems even worse nowadays. Df has a friend who owns properties in St Andrew's which are rented out to students. They're really expensive, I'm assuming because the student body there come from high income families.

@Babdoc great post.
@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow brilliant user name.

Would you not be allowed to climb trees for example in the primary school playground?

I applied for uni early 1990s and remember hearing St Andrews had double beds and your own phone by the bed

@babdoc well I'm not saying that there aren't problems I am saying that the Scottish government which has been democratically elected and in power for a decade is actively trying to legislate to improve things. I'm not saying that everything is hunky dory and there are always issues with large public procurement procedures, but this is the same in most other countries and actually public corruption is much less here than in other countries (I'm looking at you, Italy 😜)

Ok so you are against giving out baby boxes to millionaires (get a grip, Finland)...are you also against the tentative land reforms which have allowed communities to buy parcels of land....a huge step forward for local democracy? I mean, not everything is as horrendous as you make out.

Ok, so some stats are better in England in terms of university entrance, well maybe we will have to have a look at that and emulate parts of the English system, although I don't think many people want to pay 9k a year to go to uni - or get themselves into that level of debt.

EU students at Scottish unis - yes it was RECIPROCAL - and there were also Scottish students studying abroad for free - amazing opportunities! I did it! Unfortunately the next generation won't be able to now because of Brexit...

Furthermore your analysis is far too simplistic because many young people have opportunities to do apprenticeship schemes and access on the job learning via local colleges. Not all young people want to go on to further education at university. You can grown up in a deprived area in Torrie, Aberdeen and as a young man especially be tempted to earn food money straight away working offshore. Those oil rigs are massive and if you are willing to work shifts, and long on/off rotas then you are going to earn mega bucks!!

Same goes in rural areas, farmers producing barley for local whisky distilleries , the distilleries themselves, hospitality and tourist industries need skilled labour these days and it can lead to fantastic careers straight out of school.

@Orangeblossom1977

Would you not be allowed to climb trees for example in the primary school playground?

Yes the kids can climb trees.

Not in our playground they wouldn't! Ours are kept in if it's a windy day or if there's a bit of snow.

There have been posts on FB from parents who are walking past the playground at breaktimes and have criticised playground assistants for standing around doing nothing, so I think our Ht is erring on the side of caution.

That's so sad.

@RaraRachael

Not in our playground they wouldn't! Ours are kept in if it's a windy day or if there's a bit of snow.

There have been posts on FB from parents who are walking past the playground at breaktimes and have criticised playground assistants for standing around doing nothing, so I think our Ht is erring on the side of caution.

Yes, not in any school I've worked in. First of all, what trees? Secondly, if there were trees then no, they wouldn't be allowed. Children are kept in when it's too windy, when there's a bit of rain or snow or ice.

Our society has become risk averse to a damaging degree.

@ScoldsBridle
Just come back to this thread and horrified by the lack of breadth in some subjects - especially literature.

For O-level, I studied a book of modern short stories (writers from across the UK including Scotland and Ireland), Macbeth, a selection of 20th century poetry, and Thomas Hardy novel. For A level, pretty much double the amount ...

2 words, Nicola Sturgeon.