Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

Yes I noticed you included the U of H and I in your evidence for your argument but tried to let that slide.

I've no idea what you think that point was or what you let slide.

Plus I'd add that the figures given only count for how many international students at c£30k the unis have - let's not mention the rUK students who will also be chased as paying c£10k instead of c£2k. Not an issue for English universities. And then of course the disparity in what can be borrowed for maintenance where no allowance is made here for a student living away from home.

No Government is perfect. I don't think anyone who supports SNP will agree with all their policies. Same with any party.

You'd be surprised. There are posters who seem to manage to defend everything and never admit anything that is failing - but then everyone else is just being negative when they point out the shite.

The reason given was that the number of places on the course was small, of those places the number for Scottish students was capped and of those a proportion had to go to students from deprived backgrounds. By that time there were only a couple of places to play for. A demoralising comment but perhaps needed to manage expectations.
Don’t get me wrong, there are kids from the school who head to Edinburgh every year.
I went to Edinburgh in the 90s and there were lots of English, Irish and international students then. I’d be interested to know how the figures compare now to how things were then.....

Rob Roy makes me think of Liam Neeson. 😍

It's not 2 grand versus 10 grand though is it?

It's 1850 per academic year for Scottish fees. Not total.

@Jodhpurs46

The reason given was that the number of places on the course was small, of those places the number for Scottish students was capped and of those a proportion had to go to students from deprived backgrounds. By that time there were only a couple of places to play for. A demoralising comment but perhaps needed to manage expectations. Don’t get me wrong, there are kids from the school who head to Edinburgh every year. I went to Edinburgh in the 90s and there were lots of English, Irish and international students then. I’d be interested to know how the figures compare now to how things were then.....

Ok, she must have done really well then as our parents don't live in a deprived postcode. It's just a bit weird as I know she still has a lot of Scottish friends from university but reading this thread it seems like that wouldn't happen.

It’s interesting that it seems to be the folk who aren’t SNP supporters who are seeking an improvement in Scottish educational standards.

These are the same posters who want Scottish youngsters to achieve their potential, narrow the attainment gap and have a fair crack of the whip to attend the best Scottish universities.

There are valid concerns about Curriculum for Excellence and how standards are measured in Scotland right now.

The SNP have had control over Scottish education for years and should be held accountable.
And yet, their supporters on this thread, like so many others seem happy with a decline in standards and turn a blind eye to the attainment gap while insisting that everything in Scotland is better.

If you really care about Scotland and the education of its young people, you would be demanding a hell of a lot more from the SNP than it’s delivering.

@RobertatheBrusque

It’s interesting that it seems to be the folk who aren’t SNP supporters who are seeking an improvement in Scottish educational standards.

These are the same posters who want Scottish youngsters to achieve their potential, narrow the attainment gap and have a fair crack of the whip to attend the best Scottish universities.

There are valid concerns about Curriculum for Excellence and how standards are measured in Scotland right now.

The SNP have had control over Scottish education for years and should be held accountable.
And yet, their supporters on this thread, like so many others seem happy with a decline in standards and turn a blind eye to the attainment gap while insisting that everything in Scotland is better.

If you really care about Scotland and the education of its young people, you would be demanding a hell of a lot more from the SNP than it’s delivering.

Did you actually read the thread? Many SNP supporters moaning about the state of education. Myself included.

@WaxOnFeckOff

Yes I noticed you included the U of H and I in your evidence for your argument but tried to let that slide.

I've no idea what you think that point was or what you let slide.

Plus I'd add that the figures given only count for how many international students at c£30k the unis have - let's not mention the rUK students who will also be chased as paying c£10k instead of c£2k. Not an issue for English universities. And then of course the disparity in what can be borrowed for maintenance where no allowance is made here for a student living away from home.

You copied evidence saying that the U H I only has 2 per cent international students. I think you were saying that's bad and down to the SG's policy of 0 tuition?

In reality it's hardly surprising. Places like Wick and Kirkwall aren't international hot spots.

kurtrussellsbeard yes, I’ve read the thread and that’s why I struggle to understand why you and Starry defend the SNP so staunchly, especially as I think you’ve both said that you’re teachers.

@kurtrussellsbeard

Rob Roy makes me think of Liam Neeson. 😍

It's not 2 grand versus 10 grand though is it?

It's 1850 per academic year for Scottish fees. Not total.

okay its £1820 pa for 4 years which equals £7280 v's £9250 pa (usually only charged for 3 years regardless of whether rUK student does 3 or 4 years) = £27,750

so overall - £7280 for a scottish student and £27,750 for an rUK

roughly £20,500 more for the uni for exactly the same work on their part. or maybe less work if they skip 1st year.

You copied evidence saying that the U H I only has 2 per cent international students. I think you were saying that's bad and down to the SG's policy of 0 tuition?

Again no, I was indicating that the % of international students at prestigious and in demand unis was higher than that at less prestigious and in demand unis. It's not and even amount spread across scotland.

What do you think UHI stands for? I think you're a little confused.

Oh for fucks sake, I'm not confused. I know what UHI stands for. It's completely fucking irrelevant.

and what exact point are you trying to make with that? I also said that Uni's in Glasgow have around 5% (i'm not scrolling up to check) they aren't remote like Wick and Kirkwall but then UHI also has campuses in Perth and Inverness.

The point was that the desirable unis have a greater proportion of International students than the others.

I think the point is deflection.

I mean from the snp supporter!

@WaxOnFeckOff

Oh for fucks sake, I'm not confused. I know what UHI stands for. It's completely fucking irrelevant.

and what exact point are you trying to make with that? I also said that Uni's in Glasgow have around 5% (i'm not scrolling up to check) they aren't remote like Wick and Kirkwall but then UHI also has campuses in Perth and Inverness.

The point was that the desirable unis have a greater proportion of International students than the others.

My point is that of course the more desirable universities have more international students at them! Why are you shocked by this?!

I don't defend the issues in education. I have plenty to criticise the SNP about and education is top of the list.

Sounds more like it @WaxOnFeckOff ... It's a disgrace that those young people will be saddled with that debt.

Fwiw I've spent years in a few Scottish universities picking up pointless degrees and then later working and they were quite literally hoaching with Scottish students. I'm not entirely sure this narrative of poor Scottish students being ruthlessly cast aside is actually all that true.

Does anyone have figures on it? Scottish students with appropriate grades rejected? I wouldn't even know where to look to find them is the truth.

It's not always much cheaper in real payback terms to get a loan for uni living costs and pay it off in Scotland compared with fees plus living costs in England as you get it written off in England beyond a certain point. You would have to estimate the future earnings and calculate it through.
It's not such a great deal as it seems on first viewing.

@FredUpNow that's interesting. What circumstances allow the debt to be written off in England?

The vast majority never pay it off so in reality it doesn't make much difference what the level of debt is as they pay it off at pretty much the same rate but high earners will pay back more or some might pay back for longer - The money saving expert guy does a lot of good info about it.

Scotgov are sort of equalising the repayment threshold from April as up til now Scots would be paying back when earnings hit about £19kish and students in rUK were not paying back until £26/27k ish and Scotlad will be moving the threshold up to about £25k I think so roughly the same.

Honestly I was the definitely on the same page about how it was much better to have the lesser debt and the free tuition (I know I dislike the SNP but I genuinely thought this was a good thing) but I've looked into it quite a lot since I now have 2 at Uni and I don't think the same anymore.

@FredUpNow

It's not always much cheaper in real payback terms to get a loan for uni living costs and pay it off in Scotland compared with fees plus living costs in England as you get it written off in England beyond a certain point. You would have to estimate the future earnings and calculate it through. It's not such a great deal as it seems on first viewing.

It gets written off in Scotland after a certain point too ( 30 years both I believe).

I've been through the figures - the interest rates in England are much higher and if you're in a graduate job / decent salary you're paying a hell of a lot more over 30 years in England than you are in Scotland.

When I was looking a couple of years back it was dependent on your esimayevof earnings. We assumed a middle way so not paying off within a few years but not minimum wage. It was a bit dispiriting and not at all the big win for Scottish students in Scotland as you would think. At that point Scottish loans were to be paid off for longer.

There were quite a few pieces about it a few years ago where they looked at the actual grades of Scottish students who had not been awarded spaces vs rUK/foreign students, i'll try to did out some tomorrow. Most folk just then accept the space they are offered elsewhere and don't necessarily kick up a fuss/realise why they didn't get a space.

I think the student debt is written off after 30 years iirc, again will check tomorrow as heading to bed.

I've been through the figures - the interest rates in England are much higher and if you're in a graduate job / decent salary you're paying a hell of a lot more over 30 years in England than you are in Scotland.

The rate you pay at back at is the same 9% so if they are on similar salaries and it's written off after 30 years in both places then you aren't paying back any more regardless of what the interest rate is. Up until this coming year, in Scotland you would be paying it back starting at a much lower salary.

There is potential to be paying back more in England if you are on a very high salary and therefore pay it back in less than 30 years.

If anyone wants the unbiased actual figures then Martin Lewis is the guy to look at.