Scottish education - what’s gone wrong?

[miimblemomble]

Expat / emigrant Scot here.

I keep reading on threads here that ‘Scotland had a great education system but that’s all gone now’ and other similar comments. My SIL lives in Edinburgh, she’s not a fan of Nicola sturgeon or the SNP and part of it’s because of what they have “done to the schools”. I haven’t seen her in over a year now (thanks Covid) so haven’t asked what she means.

So is it true? What has had such a bad effect on the schools? I grew up being told that Scotland had the best education system in the world (not sure how that is measured) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So what’s happened since?

Cheers all.

I totally agree about children being confused over different methods, particularly when younger. I learned one method of subtraction in the 60s. Nobody ever explained why we did it that way, which is wrong, but it's a far quicker than they're taught nowadays. I had to learn that method when I went to teacher training college and still became confused when there was a zero in the top line!

We had HMIE last year and they asked our P2 pupils "Does you teacher have learning conversations with you?" Cue lots of blank looks. If they'd asked "Does your teacher talk to you about your work?" then they would have been able to answer. Too much jargon and in-phrases that mean very little.

Too much jargon and in-phrases that mean very little.

This is so true.

My sister and I were taught maths at secondary using those spmg books.

What it meant was that my extremely bright but extremely lazy sister fell way behind as they were allowed to work at their own pace. My parents were furious that they knew nothing of it until parent's night and the teacher took no responsibility for my sister's lack of progress.

I went back to study 2 science Highers as an adult in evening classes for fun recently.

I couldn't help noticing that the teaching was compromised because after a few weeks, it was all tests and exams. The quality of these was a bit iffy. I remember being asked in one of those shirt answer type tests "What is the name for moisture that falls from the atmosphere?" and I wrote in answer "precipitation". I was marked wrong, be auae apparently the correct answer was "rainfall"...

To be honest, as a tutor and someone who has both been at and taught many children from academies, free schools and maintained schools, I can say on the whole academies are extremely good. Free schools are actually better (New schools rather than schools turned into academies) as they are almost completely independent and some of them are doing exceptionally well in helping in the most deprived communities. Studio schools are also extremely good and I think its a huge issue that Scotland is not willing to allow these. They, on the whole, are a million times better than your regular maintained schools and the children, especially those in the most deprived areas, are doing especially well in them. Primary academies are also doing very well- many linked and led by private schools/ universities and trusts. Look into City of London Academies, Thomas academies, etc. So many fantastic schools, taking a much needed, traditional focus and educating all sorts of children successfully.

I volunteer at an educational charity for children from less affluent areas and I have worked at the same charity in many places in England too. As someone who grew up in poverty in England and went to a fairly poor school, I expected the level to be fairly similar. I was gobsmacked by the difference in ability between children here and in England. 11 year olds who struggle to spell 'when, the, said etc" No understanding of spoken grammar, cannot do times tables or simple addition. My nephew at 5 is able to do more than any of the 8/9 year olds and that is the same for all the kids at the same charity in England. Essentially despite having the same income issues and being equal on a socioeconomic basis, I have seen a huge difference. It is quite upsetting for parents who move to England and find out their child is miles behind. I know that education is devolved and separate entirely but it should at least be as good (England has many issues and is definitely not the best education system so I was shocked to find an even worse situation here). The children deserve better and the economy etc needs a well educated work force. Why does the SNP not realise its policies are failing. I also cannot understand the hatred towards Free schools as someone with huge experiences working with them and with children who attend them, I can say they are truly doing some wonderful things, especially with the most deprived children. They can be private school allied or ran by universities, charities, parents and local businesses and have total control over curriculums etc. They are doing better than many private schools and are helping decrease the attainment gap. I am glad many more are being opened in England but cannot understand why people here are so against them when they clearly work. It seems extremely political and I think that is a great shame as children are missing out on some wonderful educational settings and innovative teaching styles.

Not read the full thread, but comparing it to my relatives in England :— laughable consequences for poor behaviour in class— not much teaching time over the year, children spoonfed answers to tests - not sure if this is just Scotland, but seem to prewrite the answers to questions that they know they’ll be asked in exams, rather than having to think on the spot about what to write. No pressure to do well - hence lots of children opting out of subjects they deem too difficult and just choosing fun subjects instead. Small number of subjects at Nat5 mean the choice for Highers is reduced. Relatively able kids will choose to crash or retake Highers rather than to push themselves at Advanced Higher level.

Also, as a PP said, they’re not expected to do things correctly at primary- spelling and grammar was ‘good enough’ rather than correct.

My primary child has to do weekly spelling tests and the same for timestables until he learned them all. So I don't recognise some of the experiences mentioned by posters.

you see this with schools supporting children with ASN too, fewer new school models in Scotland whereas England has several new kinds of provision. A big part of these failings in Scotland will be children in a support for learning model that isn’t working.

@Shouldgetupearlier How many primary schools in Scotland have you worked in and based your comment on?

Fair enough, speaking as a parent, but just giving my opinion of my multiple children having been through primary comparing it with my own experiences and required standards from many years ago.

I think part of the problem is that anyone SNP flatly refuses to see anything that the government does as going badly. They get defensive, instead of acknowledging the problem and trying to rectify it.

solutions:

Bring back sure start type provision in areas of poverty.
Bring back the power for schools to exclude kids (this would be utterly transformational).
Ditch CfE

The main differences I see from my youth are twofold First is in the attitude of the parents. When I were a lass.. it was genuinely the case that parents by and large with very few exceptions and regardless of social class / poverty, respected the school, and teachers and backed them up. This made discipline possible and meant that extreme bad behaviour was far less likely.
Second, there were special schools supporting those who were felt to be unfitted for mainstream accommodation. That said this wasn't always a good thing. I remember being appalled that an acquaintance whose only disability was a physical one - he used a wheelchair- had to attend a special school where his educational / exam options were restricted. Surely what we need are horses for courses!

Exactly. When less able children were unable to be stellar pupils, they put stellar pupils in the same class and they were dragged down.The attainment gap was therefore narrowed. So it all goes back to the introduction of mixed ability which was tried out in Australia and failed, then piloted in Newcastle where it was declared to be of no benefit to anyone. Scottish government took it up nonetheless. This was a political decision not an educational one. We're.still living with it.

Mixed ability has been around a lot longer than CFE.

I just wish the snp would accept the criticism and improve the situation rather than burying their heads. Thousands of kids futures depend on them. Shameful

Yes. But that is where the authorities started tinkering with things in order to close the attainment gap. They really seemed to think that if children had uniform teaching then uniform results would ensue. Working in mixed ability groups was supposed to make children learn 'by osmosis'. It was insane. Then came 5-14 and an attempt to carry mixed ability on to Standard Grade. That never happened but they started tinkering again and we got Cof E thrown at us. It is an unholy mess. I took early retirement.

I have never - from P1 to S6 - been given accurate, meaningful information on how bright my children are of are not, whether they are struggling or not, whether they’d benefit from some extra help in x, y, z subject. The first I find out about it is when the result’s envelope drops through the door, and I ask all the time. Parents are there to help their kids be the best. If the school would only let us know what the kids need to work on we can ensure that work is done. It makes it incredibly hard to give them careers advice too.

@SammyScrounge all my classes are mixed ability. I don't do "uniform" teaching or expect anyone to learn by osmosis! There are a lot of faults in the Scottish education system, but I don't think mixed ability teaching is even in the top ten.

The argument continues about that. The osmosis comment was made.by a trainer who had great difficulty in explaining exactly how less able children would learn in mixed ability groups. That became a catchword in our area.
I had thought that mixed ability beyond 2nd form had been prevented everywhere. I had no idea that anyone actually did that! What on earth do you do.about senior school texts? Do you expect the less able to cope with Macbeth, for example. By osmosis?

According to today’s Scotsman, 43 percent of primary school children have ASN - at what point do we acknowledge there is an education crisis and the model is failing?

I'm not quite sure what you mean - there are subjects other than English and Maths! Many schools only run one exam class in subjects such as German, Spanish, Geography, Modern studies, history. Even if they wanted to they wouldn't have a choice. So it is by its nature mixed ability. We differentiate, as best we can.