Fears For Tiers

[Bytheloch]

Thread #567 Still here, getting through each day one 2M step away at a time. November into December 2020 here we go...

want to bet we get a Queen’s Speech of our own from Nicola on Christmas Day, at which point we should all gather round the telly and be grateful?

Ahhhhhhhhhh @AgentCooper

Icanboogie
Have they said 4 families?
I did think they might say 4 households / 10 people. Based on a couple with 3 adult children and partners, or a couple with two sets of parents and maybe a set of Grandparents or an Auntie & Uncle or friends who otherwise would be alone.

I thought 4/10 was a number most families could work with, but at the same time it does seem an awful lot of mixing compared to what we've had.

Queen Nik will agree then blame the Bold Boris, with his many weans, that he wants to see.

I really hope hospitality is allowed to open, they make so much money over the festive period.

I’m imagining her speech. From an icy mountain top, like Elsa... the Covid doesn’t bother me on Christmas Day

I think I saw 4 families on Twitter. You'd think 3 would be the max - then one isn't left out - you could have 2x2. If you allow 4, people will think they can have 8.

I don’t want any!!!

I really liked this post from hamsterarse on another thread on here

Good to read. And think about

“There are lots of studies that show that societies who have more infectious disease prevalent in the population have more support for authoritarian systems (and the absence of infectious disease in the West, on the flip side, has allowed us to become more libertarian)

So there is some pre-existing reason why authoritarianism is widely accepted right now.

Also at an individual level, there will also be a lot of people who have the personality type that really needs some level of control amongst the chaos. These are people who are high in the 'orderliness' part of conscientiousness.

You see it everywhere in this situation - orderly people are enamoured by their own willpower. So you'll hear people saying "just get through it" "it's not a lot to ask" i.e. put your willpower in place and keep things orderly amongst the chaos.

People who aren't so high in orderliness (part of conscientiousness) can tolerate more chaos and that is possibly why the twain will never meet. Some people can tolerate chaos better than others. I haven't seen their results but am trained to do Big 5 personality assessments and the members of SAGE I have seen appear very high in orderliness (Chris Whitty in particular). The guy from Sweden is definitely less so, for example, hence one obvious difference in the way policy has been formulated.

Bit of a waffle, but basically infectious disease does things to the way societies are run, and amongst the population there will be a high number of people crying out to sooth their orderliness with strict rules. But, that is why the science is so important, we have to be delivering good reasoned science and not succumb to our natural (sometimes incorrect) preference to create some orderliness at any cost”

@WouldBeGood

Oops. They're now saying 3 will be allowed to mix.

I travelled from Tier 4 to Tier 3 and back twice this weekend (care responsibilities) and no one stopped me at any point.

It looks like five days of family gatherings will be allowed with three households. If students are retuning home from university or family members from abroad or the other end of the country, it is going to be very expensive for them . Will also put a huge pressure on trains buses and planes, all over the same period. Prices of tickets for these five days will rocket. Then students will have to go back to be alone in student flats or halls without their families for the rest of the holidays! Nothing happening at New Year so a miserable time had by all.

I students will be able to travel before and after the 5 days, because of they are all going to be tested before they rejoin their family households.

The 5 days will be more for a family who are a distance away, two days travelling, three days with the grandparents. 5 days also gives shift workers a chance to see their family.

Well, I think it's crazy. Why throw away all the good that was done for one festival? Especially as a vaccine is on the horizon. Those who would meet anyway will do it, those in extreme circumstances (terminal illness or similar) can have an exemption, single people can form a bubble anyway, students are allowed to go home and the rest of us can have a quieter Christmas and hopefully avoid too much of an inevitable spike and extra restrictions in January. 🤷‍♀️

@icanboogieboogiewoogie I agree, actually.

I’m no supporter of lockdown, but it seems wholly illogical that we are told all year about the particular dangers of meeting in house and then apparently it’s fine over Christmas. Don’t get it. And I’m so so worried about more lockdown before it and after it. Poor choice I say.

I'm not going to meet up with others indoors. The 4 of us will have Christmas as usual then I'll maybe drop presents to family but will not be staying for a visit as I would usually do. Not worth it tbh

I don't think that its that crazy. 5 day window 3 households one bubble. When kids aren't mixing in schools, students are home, and many work places are closed. So less mixing overall.

Its not going to be a free for all having different bubbles on different days or different bubbles in the morning to the afternoon. Which is what some seem to be interpreting it as.

We will be having our usual Christmas more or less, just the 4 of us with live away student DS home. It does mean I suppose that there is no problem with DS girlfriend coming over, he lives with her term time.

It would be nice if the pub was open for our traditional walk and drink but I guess that's too much to expect.

No one I know was planning large gatherings anyway but will mean that the gathering they were going to have anyway (like going to their mum's) will be officially OK.

Surely people just need to consider their vulnerable people and then crack on?

DSs GF, I guess it means your household would be forming a bubble with hers. So that's 2 households in the bubble.
Who gets to add the third household, your family or hers?

I think the issue is if they had kept to the no indoor mixing, a large number of previously rule following people would have said sod it and had their Christmas dinner anyway.

Then the government and police would have had the unenviable choice of either cancelling all the police forces leave and criminalising families for being together, or the public would realise that the rules are all Wizard of Oz smoke and mirrors and only work because the people follow them.

I think it's a reasonable compromise . The folks who intend having a cast of hundreds in the house anyway will do that regardless of the rules and the rest of us will stick to it. We'll see what the numbers are like at the time before deciding how we should celebrate christmas with my octogenarian DPs - if it's a walk outside only - well that's finr by me.

I think having a clear end before NYE is a good idea, as that is based on people drinking and mingling together, so much bigger potential for spreading. It would be good for Christmas as well if they suggested that people isolate for a week before seeing elderly or vulnerable relatives - even a few days might make a difference. We have to decide if we stop DS 14 seeing his pals the week before Christmas so he can see his GF and GM.

Biking, not that I give a toss, but would be hers as we don't see anyone else. But at the end of the day, it's up to them what they do. I'm not the covid police.

Waxon I'd probably take the same attitude.

But the one bubble of three households could create conflict as it basically becomes my family vs his for a lot of people.

I've just heard a theory that schools might close / go online on the 11th so no kids are self isolating over Christmas.

It just shows that none of this is really backed by science when politicians want votes.

@Bikingbear

Waxon I'd probably take the same attitude.

But the one bubble of three households could create conflict as it basically becomes my family vs his for a lot of people.

I've just heard a theory that schools might close / go online on the 11th so no kids are self isolating over Christmas.

So what happens to the kids who can't get online at home? Or who aren't massively engaged in education and need a teacher cajoling them to get them to start, or whose parents are working? Another week's worth of widening the gap. And people won't isolate during that time. Kids will be out together, and people will crowd into shops.

To be fair, I've not looked at what the rules are as we would be having our normal quiet Christmas anyway and I leave it up to DS2, his girlfriend and her family to do what they are comfortable with.

My friend will be glad if it means she can avoid going to her in laws :o

Absolutely this is about what people want and what the police can enforce. It's not terribly much of a boon for people who won't see family because they are all too scared of covid. Still, I'm happy for any relaxation of the rules for whatever reason.

I reeallly hope we don't face extra January school holidays though!