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[grumplass]

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@honigbutter

I wouldn't claim to know about educational standards in every country in Europe but I am familiar with several as well as Scotland. My statement didn't come out of thin air.

"Trust me I know what I'm talking about," is not supportive evidence. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not saying the other poster is either but to quote a great philosopher (or two):

"Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says."

you're! - d'oh!

@honigbutter

Scotland's population is the most educated in Europe.

The ignorance of this statement is frightening.

And that people still believe it means they will believe anything.

A quick Google search on "%age of school children in Scotland going to university" and "%age of school children in England going to university" shows by that reckoning as a measure of education Scotland's population isn't even the most educated in the UK.

Or as educated as Sweden, France or Norway. Scotland's rate for children going to university is about the same as Germany and the Netherlands. I haven't checked every EU country.

?

What does the age that some one goes to school have to do with it?

And the original statement referred to 'Scotland's population' not just the current school leavers.

See it’s this kind of thing that pisses me off.

If we are the most educated in Europe, I want to see comparative statistics, results in terms of earning power at various ages, how many people leave school and go into what type of job - otherwise I’m sorry, it is hot air!

It isn’t even that great a measure of future ability to fund and run a country. Let’s say tourism is our safest industry (hypothetically) - you don’t need a degree to contribute to that economy, for example.

Not to mention people have been saying this for what? A hundred years? It was doing the rounds when I was a kid, definitely, and I understood it wasn’t correct within about half an hour of getting to university.

Let’s focus on reality, not propaganda!

Totally agree @nibdedibble. We need reasoned, fact based debate not propaganda-lite sound-bites. If it turns out, as I suspect, that we are average or just just above by this metric then great. What's the problem? Scotland, as a country, on a par with Sweden, France or Norway? All independent and self-determining countries. Sounds good to me. We don't HAVE to be the best at everything, all the time to make our case.

If "Scotland's population is the most educated in Europe" is true (which, sadly, I doubt) then why don't we have the figures to hand to prove it to anyone who doubts it.

"My country is brilliant and you're all shit!" might do for the knuckle draggers who wrap themselves in the George Cross at internationals but we need more than that.

Tertiary education is wider than university. www.heraldscotland.com/news/13163915.uk-statisticians-scotland-is-the-most-highly-educated-country-in-europe/
This is from 2014 and I'm trying to remember stats from my last developing the young workforce training. I can't remember the exact placing but I'm sure we are still in the top 3.

Also there are obviously lots of in depth stats collated regarding positive destinations in Scotland.

Aye, a thousand times over

Then I think ‘According to this measure, Scotland is in the top whatever of European countries for X’ scans so much better.

Sorry, I just have seen all this ‘Scotland’s the best in the world’ rhetoric all my life and it only persuades the flag waving blue faced brigade. I want us to be taken seriously within Europe as a small, capable country.

It’s like the difference between Salmond and Sturgeon. He - all bluster and soundbite and back-slapping. She - serious-minded and forensic. (I’m not going to go as far as ‘accurate’, naebody bite ma head off!)

Anyway, enough of my flashbacks. (All the family who are propagandists for Scotland voted No, anyway! Army connections.)

' "My country is brilliant and you're all shit!" might do for the knuckle draggers who wrap themselves in the George Cross at internationals but we need more than that.'

There it is - why not use '........who wrap themselves in the Saltire at internationals......' You kind of lose the argument when you automatically assume Scots are better than everyone else and don't have a problem with knuckle draggers.

Part of the issue I've always had with the SNP and people who are just blindly pro-independence, is that they automatically seem to think we're better than everyone else - better educated, more socially fair, kinder, cleverer, funnier etc., and it's just not true (don't get me wrong, I think we're great, but we're far from perfect). That there is no racism or homophobia in Scotland. That we're just, well, better.

And as far as the education thing goes, it's all well and good to offer funded university education (note, funded, not free), but the funding is not keeping pace with the actual cost of providing degree level education and Scottish universities are having to increasingly offer places to overseas students because they pay more. So local students are starting to miss out.

There it is - why not use '........who wrap themselves in the Saltire at internationals......' You kind of lose the argument when you automatically assume Scots are better than everyone else and don't have a problem with knuckle draggers.

This^. I think there are people in the SNP movement who are GENUINELY convinced that Scots are nicer people and the English are evil (which makes them look stupid).

The evil English?! The SNP strive to be an independent country, an equal neighbour of England.
Why, again, are you obsessed with the English? Why are you not saying your (incorrect) opinion is that some SNP supporters feel the Welsh are evil? or Irish?

Because the original comment was about the flag of St George. I didn’t bring up the English.

What does the age that some one goes to school have to do with it?

Is this question in relation to my post?

%age = percentage.

This is from 2014 and I'm trying to remember stats from my last developing the young workforce training. I can't remember the exact placing but I'm sure we are still in the top 3

Not quite. Scotland had a very mediocre Pisa rating recently although has clawed back a little.

BBC News - Pisa: Mixed report for Scottish education in world rankings
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50642855

Yes , a million times, yes. Don't think I've commented on this thread yet and apologies if I have.

If we don't get independence soon then it's bad news for the education sector via the Torie's internal market bill. I saw that teachers on the Scottish Primary Teachers Group are realising the catastrophic effect it'll have on Scottish education. I'm not sure when it actually comes into place and hoping / praying that we get out before then.

Pps weren't talking about Pisa testing @ Dido.

And ScotsLassie I saw Ross again repeating his plea for the SG to pass on the £700m to Scottish businesses knowing full well that money needs to cover infrastructure, health, f*cking everything in Scotland for the next six months. Absolutely disgusting liar of a man. He's just a Ruth clone with his Trump tactics- repeat the lies often enough and people will believe them.

Yip. And thank goodness for devolution and the fact that DR isn't the FM - the poor weans would be going hungry in the holidays.

Well done all the English businesses offering food for free. They shouldn't need to take the hit though to feed the poorest.

@diplodocusinermine

' "My country is brilliant and you're all shit!" might do for the knuckle draggers who wrap themselves in the George Cross at internationals but we need more than that.'

There it is - why not use '........who wrap themselves in the Saltire at internationals......' You kind of lose the argument when you automatically assume Scots are better than everyone else and don't have a problem with knuckle draggers.

Part of the issue I've always had with the SNP and people who are just blindly pro-independence, is that they automatically seem to think we're better than everyone else - better educated, more socially fair, kinder, cleverer, funnier etc., and it's just not true (don't get me wrong, I think we're great, but we're far from perfect). That there is no racism or homophobia in Scotland. That we're just, well, better.

And as far as the education thing goes, it's all well and good to offer funded university education (note, funded, not free), but the funding is not keeping pace with the actual cost of providing degree level education and Scottish universities are having to increasingly offer places to overseas students because they pay more. So local students are starting to miss out.

Quite happy to post 'Knuck draggers who wrap themselves in the Saltire at internationals etc.' or Le Tricolore... or or Old Glory at Internationals.... or... Maybe I should have just said 'flags'. I was just using the George Cross as an obvious example.

There was no anti-English sentiment behind it. (FFS I AM English if you want to measure that by where I was born, lived half my life, and what my accent is.)

To my way of thinking wrapping yourself in a flag that represents (or has become clearly identified) with a geographical region is a pretty knuckle dragging thing to do. What's so magical about the dirt on one side of an arbitrarily drawn political line that makes it more special than the dirt on the other side of the line?

I think you are being selective. The SNP members I know (myself included) don't think we (Scotland) are better than anyone else. Yes we have homophobia in Scotland - I've been on enough Pride marches to know that. We acknowledge there are all sorts of problems in our society. We have all the same sorts of problems every other country has. What we haven't got is an effective way of dealing with them in the way WE want to. We have everything else a country has (good, bad, and inedible) apart from self-determination.

I'm fed up with blaming Westminster when things are shit and praising Holyrood when they ameliorate the UK gov.'s fuckups. I want to be able to have both blame and praise directed at in Edinbugh.

@DidoLamenting

What does the age that some one goes to school have to do with it?

Is this question in relation to my post?

%age = percentage.

Then why didn't you say so?

I voted no in 2014, and I haven’t changed in my views... but by God has the UK changed.

I can’t take the risk of waiting for England to change its trajectory... so it’s two votes SNP for me, first time ever.

Unwavering support from me (English, living in the South East).

Yes. And I do not support the SNP either. It's important for others on here to realise we are not all of one political thought, but we stand together on this issue.

Can't forgive the SNP for the hate crime bill.
In my own home, if I argued strongly (which I do) to protect the sex-based rights of girls and women, and single sex spaces in refuges, prisons and hospitals, I could be accused and charged with hate crime.
We are the only country in Western Europe in which this is the case.
I'm surprised there is not more outrage from women - the only group not protected by the bill - about this absolute assault on our freedom of speech.