Please add your support for an independent Scotland

[grumplass]

Please comment on this thread to indicate how many supporters of independence are on Scotsnet.
Please do not post if you do not support.

There's no emotional rhetoric. There are facts but I've yet to meet a unionist who has done any research and can provide me with facts demonstrating an overall benefit for Scotland staying in the UK.

Scotland has a higher gdp per capita than the UK as a whole. Scotland has a higher gdp than, for example NZ and similar population size. As far as I'm aware NZ don't need to hand over their wealth to another gov and get just over half back to spend how they wish. NZ, I don't think, has 1 in 3 children in poverty. NZ doesn't need to pay this other government millions per year so that the poorest individuals are protected from having to pay the other government if they have a spare bedroom. I mean I could write a fecking essay but it won't make a difference. David Cameron, Alastair Darling and others have literally spoke about Scotland's wealth keeping the UK ( Cameron) and Eng ( Darling) afloat yet people refuse to believe it as you're fed the story of how Scotland is better off financially under WM.

I mean another poster was going on about how his business will be affected post indy, there's been no detail on it and something about his MSP. I found the answer im the white paper online in 2 nanoseconds. In my experience, unionists are the ones with the empty rhetoric and just lazy . Another one's the internal market bill- big arguments saying it's fine and they hadn't even read any of it. It is definitely not pro indy's who don't research and it really gets my goat with the whole condescending attitude of unionists.

@nibdedibble I totally respect your point of view and I actually do understand the desire to chart your own course, even if I don't share it necessarily. It's refreshing to see a potential Yes/Leave voter acknowledging the scale of the challenge and wanting to see a clear plan forward too. If only the 'be brave, things can only get better' crowd weren't so much more vocal, there'd be a lot less anxiety about the whole discussion!

And re tech jobs, the SG are all over that- Developing The Young Workforce starts at primary level ( aim - to ensure young people in Scotland have the technological skills for the changing economy).

Also, heard of Rockstar games? We have a huge gaming / software industry, primarily based around Dundee.

Agree that there needs to be far more than just wanting independence and believing in it with your heart and soul. It really does just come down to the economics. For those saying things might be difficult for a few years - how many is a few? Is it like Rees-Mogg's fifty years for the uk to recover from Brexit? Because that's not only the rest of my life, it's most of the life of the next generation, and the working life of at least the next generation after that.

The SNP have managed to spin this to make it look as if Scots are somehow better than other citizens of the UK, fairer, more socially responsible. I don't think that's true. Someone who works in a Glasgow shipyard probably has a more socialist vision for Scotland than a farmer in Sutherland or the Borders, but then again, so does a factory worker in Liverpool or Newcastle (for England rather than Scotland, obvs, or maybe for the UK as a whole). As for Scotland being more welcoming, not sure about this either. We have a far smaller minority ethnic population than England, we really don't know how Scots would respond to a similar minority ethnic population to say Birmingham or Manchester.

Socially we are not like the Scandinavians, so perhaps we're not as economically similar as we'd like to believe either.

The SNP have made a mess of quite a few things - it does make me wonder if they can be trusted with the pro independence facts and figures.

The problem with saying 'Please do not post if you do not support' means you're shouting into an echo chamber. Unless you get 2.2M signing in with their support, it doesn't give you much of an idea!

I'm still not convinced, and tbh in the middle of Brexit (which I didn't vote for) and a global pandemic about which we don't have a clue what the endgame will be, perhaps this is not the best time to be having another vote.

@anon444877 @nibdedibble @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

I do not believe for a minute that any of you will be convinced by facts and figures if you haven't been by now.

It's pure whataboutery and small mindedness.

It's the kind of "yes we can ....but not today"
thinking that gave us the vow.

To say I don't understand economics is interesting... not sure how you are working that one out or what makes you more qualified.
I'm certainly not going to spend time worrying about your opinions.

Independence like everything in politics and economics depends largely on confidence and hope. You have to be brave and be prepared to trust in a better future and take that leap in the dark.

Who can predict the future or know which industries and investments will be a safe bet?

Were you living in a different 2020?

We have many sustainable assets as a nation and a huge one is our tourism industry.
We have a strong domestic tourism sector but it can also enable us to access foreign currency if we so wish.

We might want foreign currency reserves for a variety of possible reasons in future. Which you will understand of course @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

Unless you are happy to be rid of the hospitality and tourism industries including visit Scotland ?

And calling people condescending and small minded won't cut it either. I'm very much undecided. Have looked at reams and reams of papers, facts and figures on both sides because this is my future and the future of at least 2 younger generations of my family, and I am not convinced of the economics.

Mm not sure why my last post was in bold ... !!

@diplodocusinermine have you read the thread? It started as a simple yes to find out if there were any independence supporters in Scotsnet. Unionists undermined that by coming on and arguing. So it's no longer a count.
Having said that there are probably at least 150 of us on here which is heartening! Some balance has been redressed
Not really fussed if it is an echo chamber ( which it's not) as so many threads in Scotsnet have become unionist Nicola hating echoes themselves) I'm looking at you October into November lockdown!!!!

"We have many sustainable assets as a nation and a huge one is our tourism industry.
We have a strong domestic tourism sector but it can also enable us to access foreign currency if we so wish.

We might want foreign currency reserves for a variety of possible reasons in future. Which you will understand of course @Y0uCann0tBeSer10us

Unless you are happy to be rid of the hospitality and tourism industries including visit Scotland ?"

Not sure why this is directed at me specifically as I haven't said anything about the tourism industry, and have specifically stated that I'm not an economist, but quite honestly I doubt you are either, which is why I think we need solid impartial information about the impacts of various plans (with no plans currently even in existence to my knowledge).

I think bravery and hope are a big part of getting the votes, and rightly so - but I think we need much, much more in terms of economic certainty because we have very specific challenges that exist over the uk and are being ignored over the uk (poverty/generational health inequality and now paucity of opportunity for social mobility).

Tourism and hospitality are fantastic and we already do well. There is a tipping point though. Where I live, you literally could not squeeze another quid out of the terrain and real estate without doing damage. Visit Scotland has revolutionised Scots’ own view of this amazing country, it’s done an amazing job. If you go to Skye in July you see the downsides to our tourism industry. The roads can’t cope. The locals suffer. Services can’t manage the number of visitors.

It’s not stupid or negative to say ‘Looking ahead to an independent nation where we will need to grow our already buoyant tourism and hospitality sector, how do we do it responsibly?’ This sort of question needs discussion, not calling people out. I’m not a sceptic for asking it at all!

@diplodocusinermine
It just boils down to... if independence was achieved would you leave the country?
Or would you be out partying, waving flags and ceilidh dancing, singing Flower of Scotland and eating haggis nachos with the rest of us? ( all infectious disease permitting!)
I think if you can answer yes to that second point you will find your answer to whether you want independence.
You'll never find it in the reams of paper which are there anyway, should you wish to read them.
And I will bet that no one posting against independence on here will actually leave Scotland, they will all be as patriotic as the next and have a wee dram on Independence Day like the rest !

I would leave

@hilbil21 bye then send me £5 if you don't

No need to say bye I will stay while we are still part of the United Kingdom

You see, grumplass, I do find that attitude a bit condescending. Almost like - you're no true Scot if you don't vote for independence. If I did vote yes I probably wouldn't be waving flags and partying - I'd be feeling pretty worried about how things were going to pan out and hoping I hadn't made the wrong decision. I guess that's the difference between someone going into this with a head full of figures and various scenarios playing out in their mind and someone with a heart full of saltires and visions of the sunny uplands (maybe that's me being condescending ).

I don't know if I'd leave. Maybe I wouldn't be able to leave. My family are here. My job is here (well, it was before a virus put paid to it). I guess we'd all just keep on keeping on and hope for the best.

nibdedibble makes a good point about tourism - the sector I work in incidentally. Much of what's going on at the moment, especially in the north and Edinburgh, is unsustainable, and it is hollowing out many rural communities.

@hilbil21 you will be welcome to stay I'm sure... haggis nachos optional

Here's a wee fact you might not be aware of. From 1st Jan, prices will rocket. Why? HMRC have changed the rules for VAT - no easy, free up to £15 , buyer pays system. Instead sellers from the EU will need to pay it directly to the government. Also, British sellers will need to pay VAT if selling to EU. The result? We can normally buy anything from amazon that's sold in the EU. That won't be the case. Also , EU companies will be put off selling in the UK so less competition- prices will rocket. This is happening. Guess unionists won't respond as they appear to not like facts as much as they like to protest that they do.
Oh and Scotland is the UK's only next exporter so if, post indy, the UK were to impose a tariff on Scottish food and other exports, they'd be absolutely rucktered and have a lot more to lose than us ( especially if we're in the eu/ free trade with our European neighbours).

"If I did vote yes I probably wouldn't be waving flags and partying - I'd be feeling pretty worried about how things were going to pan out and hoping I hadn't made the wrong decision. I guess that's the difference between someone going into this with a head full of figures and various scenarios playing out in their mind and someone with a heart full of saltires and visions of the sunny uplands"

^Absolutely this! Especially given the only experience we have that even comes close (i.e Brexit).

@diplodocusinermine it's a shame you find that attitude condescending, because actually it's how people in normal countries feel. They feel patriotic about their own country ( sometimes to an unfortunate and xenophobic extent).
In the USA for example all children pledge allegiance to the flag.

It speaks volumes that people can identify as Scottish and see Scotland as a country but somehow we can't manage our own affairs like everyone else.

No one can promise what the future will look like.
There are lots of projections and views and ideas and white papers.
You're just going to have to trust in yourself and others to build a better nation for our DCs.
Honestly getting to the point where I feel we have explained things too many times to people who don't want to listen.

@Scotslassie1 Here's a wee fact you might not be aware of. From 1st Jan, prices will rocket. Why? HMRC have changed the rules for VAT - no easy, free up to £15 , buyer pays system. Instead sellers from the EU will need to pay it directly to the government. Also, British sellers will need to pay VAT if selling to EU. The result? We can normally buy anything from amazon that's sold in the EU. That won't be the case. Also , EU companies will be put off selling in the UK so less competition- prices will rocket.

Brexit comes with lots of problems, I think everyone knows this, and it is in large part because article 50 was triggered before there was any kind of plan in place. The whole thing is a shambles. The question is: How does Scottish independence solve any of these problems?

[quote Svelteinmydreams]@Babdoc 👏👏👏Thank-you. You said it so much better than I would have.[/quote]
This.

And I feel as if I've explained things too many times to people who don't want to listen to - works both ways. Where does patriotism tip over into xenophobia? Is waving flags and singing Flower of Scotland patriotic or xenophobic? Is it patriotic because it's us Scots doing it but if it was English people waving the St Gerge's cross and singing Jerusalem it would be xenophobia? How does that work? Again, it comes down to this 'thing' whereby we seem to think, as Scots, that we're better than others, and I just don't get it.

Scottish independence plus fast entry to the EU would actually solve that particular problem because we’d be part of a large trading bloc which would use VATMOSS - overseas businesses will set this up at their end so they can trade with the EU.

Right now, overseas businesses are starting to say they won’t do it for the U.K. because it’s too expensive and onerous for too small a market.

EU membership would sort this. Quite another story getting it, I do realise.

Please don't tell me you believe the Tory marketing strategy re Scotland and the EU? We will be in the EU post indy. That's why. And no, there's no queue for joining just like there's no queue of millions wanting to enter the country from Turkey or £350m coming to the NHS or whatever other lies the UK Gov have used in their adverts.

Is that a q for me? I don’t automatically believe anything the Tories or actually any unionist party says about independence!

@nibdedibble, agreed. So it seems to me there are three questions that as society we need clarity on before making any decisions about independence:

1. Does Scotland actually want to rejoin the EU given that we'd likely have to accept new joiner conditions like the Euro
2. Will the EU confirm that they will allow us to join in a timely manner (essentially immediately) to close the funding gap caused by leaving the UK.
3. In a situation where Scotland had to choose between alignment with the EU and alignment with the UK in terms of jobs/movement/business etc. (which seems likely) which is preferable?