Please add your support for an independent Scotland

[grumplass]

Please comment on this thread to indicate how many supporters of independence are on Scotsnet.
Please do not post if you do not support.

I don't think we'll agree on this,

Nobody on here has to agree, that's why the Scots will be having a referendum so we can all put forward our choice and let the majority make the decision. Democracy.

I don't agree that op is unreasonable wanting a thread to roughly gauge numbers of supporters. Those who aren't are welcome and able to start their own thread to gauge those who'd vote no. There are umpteen threads debating the finer details and if you wanted you could start another.

Rather smacks of contrary and disruptive just for the sake of it!

Because it gives no idea if the yes vote outnumbers the no.

If someone started a no thread it might. Someone recently asked for a polling section on mn, or else maybe using the voting options on Aibu? Though I can't think of a neutral-Ish aibu question to gauge this unless it was just arbitrarily which was which?

Yes

I foolishly voted no in indyref but not for pro England reasons (too outing to say here as vocal about in in real life and quite niche reasoning, but happy to pm anyone that's curious especially op)

Lots of no voting friends and family also saying they'd now vote yes, in fact I'm struggling to think of anyone I know that would vote no. And that's across a wide range of socio-economic and political leanings.

I'd vote yes now and have even voted snp on occasion as the local candidate is very good I have to say and the local labour candidate is shite!

Would NEVER vote Tory and frankly I'm highly suspicious of Scots who vote Tory and suspect most Tory voters in Scotland aren't Scots.

My only concern is for the citizens in the rest of the UK who are stuck with the Westminster shitshow.

agree with this though ESPECIALLY those in Northern Ireland

How will the border work?

I don't see that it would need to be more problematic than any other country border. Why would it be?

Well it seems to unsolvable in Ireland

Totally different circumstances and history there!

Though to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if they went for independence too after getting utterly shafted over Brexit!

I don't agree with disenfranchising people and agree it was appalling that EU nationals were for Brexit when arguably they're among the most affected!

I've an odd accent as a result of not fully growing up in Scotland (army brat) so I have experienced the anti English attitudes from the ignorant few who've mistakenly thought I'm English/welsh (very odd accent!) but they are very much in the minority and would be bigoted idiots whatever the current political climate was!

The vast majority of Scots have welcomed me home and treated me and my Dd well.

I've experienced far worse in England depending on where I was living at the time and that was way before indyref was even a prominent "thing"!

I'm under no illusions leaving would be easy but I do think long term Scotland would be better off.

What I don't understand is, if we are held in such low regard, why does England want to keep hold of us?!?!

Yes I always find that contradiction a bit strange!

@PilatesPeach

A psychic in DM on Monday said there would be no union by end of 2021. Her track record of correct predictions seems very accurate.

So much of this thread is really concerning: the grasp of fiscal policy, the understanding of history, the understanding of borders, of setting up a currency, and so on.

You won’t care, because ideologically you imagine it will all ‘sort itself out’ or ‘can’t be worse than the Tories, ha’.

There’s just a lack of depth.

It can be worse. It can be Greece. And oil won’t save it.

A psychic in DM on Monday said there would be no union by end of 2021. Her track record of correct predictions seems very accurate.

HAH! I would love to have an Independent Scotland but relying on the cold reading skills of a charlatan 'psychic' who has access to the same newspapers, polls, and political pundits as well as the rest of us is going to move things along much.

Like most 'psychics' I would guess her track record is about as good as sticking a needle in a list of options, flipping a coin, or any other random activity. (Then sit back, accentuate the positive hits ignore the misses and fudge the open-to-interpretation 'almosts'.)

'Psychics' my arse.

How will the border work?

I don't see that it would need to be more problematic than any other country border. Why would it be?

No reason at all.

For one thing it will be a lot easier to sort out, physically, than the only other land border between what will be left of the UK and an EU country.

There are a couple of hundred crossing places between Northern Ireland and Eire - there's only something like nine or ten between Scotland and England.

No-one's "relying" on "the skills of a psychic" stop being so condescending both of you who mentioned it and eyerolled.

It's not surprising unionists can't let a yes thread run. They're frightened indy is going to happen.

Someone asked why now during a pandemic. Because Westminster will close Holyrood down if we're not independent within the next short while. Because unionists are already campaigning. Because polls are showing consistent majorities for yes. Because the longer we are tied to and controlled by the Westminster government the less we will have left to work with if it does happen. Because Westminster will never let its cash cow go. Many other reasons but I need to get out to work!

@PersonaNonGarter
If this thread is "concerning "
Why are you on it?

Fiscal policy was explained in enormous detail in 2014
Borders, currency etc

I could spend ages discussing this and give links to recent changes in economic policy and thinking ( not fiscal as that is slightly different ) across the globe.

Greece? That's more likely to be the uk after Brexit considering the amount of contracts handed out to cronies by Westminster.

But despite the huge amount of detail given out in the past it only served as confirmation bias to people who were against Indy

Now we are done with that. We don't need to explain to you as it won't convince no matter how excellent.

Hearts as well as minds

We don't need permission for self determination.

If you feel Scotland is a nation but are trying to rationalise that away, go with your ❣

Be brave.

Why am I on this thread? It is about my home.

Why am I eye rolling at psychics? Do you actually have to ask?

‘Be brave’ is about the depth of what you have here. A slogan. ‘Hearts as well as minds’ etc. Slogans, psychics, etc. ‘We don’t need permission’.

Greece? That's more likely to be the uk after Brexit considering the amount of contracts handed out to cronies by Westminster.

This^ is what makes me realise you have little understand of 1) the economic issues that gave rise to Greece’s crisis in the Eurozone 2) the extent cronyism played in those issues 3) the levels of cronyism in Westminster and in Holyrood.

But hey this thread is full of people saying Unionists aren’t very clever so do enlighten.

@PersonaNonGarter, we are all eye rolling at psychics

And the wee smiley face at the end doesn't take away your sneering tone

Not sneering. I try to stay cheerful on these threads.

I will point out that ‘Be brave’ or ‘Hearts with minds’ are just empty though: they could be used to sell breakfast cereal or encourage you to sign up for a fun run. They aren’t a basis for constitutional decision making.

I understand the passion people feel for separating Scotland from rUK. But often it is clear there is a lack of depth and technical knowledge - of how currencies work, capital and asset pricing, how policies are funded etc, where your pension comes from etc. It is delusional.

I would vote for independence.
Last time, I did a lot of leafleting and got folk out for the vote, and I'm not sure if I have the energy to do that this time around.
I still like the snp in a lot of ways and think their ideas are v much in line with a social democratic approach to eg welfare which I think is fairer than the UK neoliberal approach.
Other parties have been equally infiltrated and captured re gender politics so I don't see why I would hold it against the snp in particular.
But as said above, I would have other parties to vote for after independence.
I'm so sad to be leaving the EU.
It's incredibly disappointing.
It will absolutely have a negative financial effect and we in Scotland didn't choose it.
It won't lead to any benefits.
Whereas independence might have a temporarily negative effect on our finances but we would then have autonomy to build a country that isn't founded on values we don't espouse.

I'll be dead before I'm eligible for a pension. I understand why people want to know how pensions will work but Westminster keeps raising the age you can claim it at. My mum died at 63 and my gran was 65. It's a shame the level is being set based on life expectancy in England.

@PersonaNonGarter
I did say I wasn't going to get into a discussion about it...
It's all been explained before and will be again. But if you don't have an emotional connection or a feeling that you want independence you will find a million reasons why not and ask " but the money "?

It's NEVER the financial argument that will convince.
It's rarely why people move to Scotland- they love the landscape or the culture or the people. They agree with our social policies or values.
Two things will shift people from no to yes:
Government policies in Scotland and Uk ( competency)

That's why unionists get so worked up about Nicola as she is perceived as effective and competent.

Social acceptability and peer pressure eg when everyone is doing it.

I can send you spreadsheets and links but you won't change your mind and it would be a waste of time.

There is more to running an economy than fiscal policy. That is simply one factor and as you presume to know, an independent country needs many more tools in its belt.

The only part of Greece truly comparable to Scotland is the fact that we can readily access foreign currency through tourism.

Whereas independence might have a temporarily negative effect on our finances but we would then have autonomy to build a country that isn't founded on values we don't espouse.

This is confused thinking - what is the temporary effect that we then can get out of - and how long is that? And how do we get out? What are these mythical values that will make Scots better off but aren’t held by rUK?

Just to point out: values don’t pay for things. All the noble values in the world won’t actually fund a welfare state.

Westminster keeps raising the age you can claim it at. My mum died at 63 and my gran was 65. It's a shame the level is being set based on life expectancy in England.

Are you suggesting that 1) the pension age should be lower 2) that England is keeping the pension age unreasonably high 3) an independent Scotland would have more money to reduce the pension age?

@grumplass why would I show 'facts' about brexit when I didn't vote for it and don't support it? I've got full respect for logically coherent pro-Indy positions that believe there won't ever be a good time for Scotland to go independent economically so now is as good a time as any to pay the huge economic costs of separation. What annoys me is the pretence that the Nordic vision will be just around the corner after the referendum.

It's an idealistic position not an economically rational one just like the one taken by the brexit voters. The one key difference is that the rUK is Scotland's largest trading partner, far more so than the EU.

Similarly I was upset too @Scotslassie1 when I read about the meals yesterday morning and teary and signing petitions and chatting about the awfulness of boris and his crew with other 'loony yoons'.

The thing about democracy is that it doesn't always go your way and you have to live with it because every community is a mix of people that vote different ways. The moral arguments can be used on both sides - Scottish children have been benefiting economically from the union since at least 2014.

Not the thread for this really, but values v much do inform welfare policy.
You could look at Esping-Andersen's models of welfare.

It's all been explained before and will be again.

I can send you spreadsheets and links but you won't change your mind and it would be a waste of time.

Bluntly, please do. Please do explain.

Because what you are setting out here is whataboutery - where you are saying the facts are addressed in spreadsheets somewhere else so we shouldn’t get into it.

You say that economics is about more than fiscal policy - but it isn’t clear that you understand economics, fiscal policy or the issues in Greece. Reducing it to tourism and not understanding the connection with changing the currency show me you don’t know these things.

Definitely

@PersonaNonGarter I am a potential Yes but I agree that airy fairy slogans are infuriating. I have a lovely friend who comes out with these and follows up with ‘and the rest will sort itself out’ - people will die if there’s no money, that’s not sorting itself out.

I agree with the OP that the emotional case will garner votes but personally I want solid hard and IMPARTIAL facts. We have generation upon generation of intractable poverty and ill health here, large numbers of people for whom Visit Scotland means nothing. I believe the SNP are ideologically committed to taking that on but I need to see proof it can be done. I find nice slogans a bit insulting to my intelligence. This is a commitment to people’s lives.

I should add I want to see ALL the parties committed to taking on social and health inequality in an independent Scotland but currently there’s no mechanism for Labour or Con to actually say anything about what they might do. I hope they wake up in the near future and stop their relentless wee nippy narrative, they are failing badly right now.

@nibdedibble I'm more towards the No/remain end of the spectrum (whatever the new question might be), but I agree with lots of what you say. I want to see Scotland thrive, but I recognise the very deep rooted problems we have in Scotland related to poverty, ill-health, lack of personal ambition etc., particularly around the Glasgow area where I am. We are top of various lists within the UK that are really nothing to be proud of, including higher rates of drinking, smoking and drug deaths.

I don't want empty rhetoric about how it will all be OK if we're not shackled to Westminster any more, I want hard facts and a clear plan forward. The Scottish government already has ample powers to demonstrate the direction it wants to take Scotland in, and frankly, hasn't impressed much so far. We seem to get lots of well meaning but poorly implemented legislation but the core problems remain. Also, it's frankly offensive to suggest that people who do want clear facts and solid evidence are just scared and should just be a bit braver. There is nothing wrong with small 'c' conservatism - some would just call this sensible. This is about our futures, our children's futures, and it should be carefully considered not a leap of faith.

@Y0uCann0tBeSer10us Yep - there is so much expensive work to be done to get us to the same place as a small and successful similar-sized nation. We aren’t starting from zero, we’re starting from negative numbers. I believe it is the right thing to do, to take that on, because all of us are being failed by years of poor government (it’s not just Johnson, he’s a symptom not the cause).

We have so many decent foundations of a good and fair small state in theory but we cannot escape reality. Our land is not (by and large) owned by us, our whisky industry is not owned by us, oil obviously, space ports, wind farms, tech, never mind financial services which we’re about to lose anyway because of Brexit. We have to face up to facts and put forward ways to garner co-operation from the people who actually own the things the Yes campaign is hawking as the basis for a successful future. It’s not enough to flash pretty pictures when we know the depths of the trickery companies and conglomerates use to avoid taxes (for example).

I also want clarity on EU membership. I want it. It’s no secret that the SNP is split there. If there’s any prevarication about it I will bail. (Nobody mention the word sovereignty, not one of us gave a shit until Farage started bleating that word and it means fuck all.)

I sound like No but I’m really very Yes. I just want realism. We have to be, as citizens, better and fairer-minded and happier to invest our higher taxes. Without that commitment, and I’d argue without a political coalition as well (one party rule never goes well) it’s just unicorns.

I'm not sure we are at the decent foundations stage, too reliant on oil prices and public sector jobs, and pretty much every country's growth solution is tech jobs growth - just how many of those are there as technological competence rises in the general population and number of workers needed to maintain tech decreases?