If you voted no in the independence referendum...

[HirplesWithHaggis]

...is Brexit changing your mind?

I've seen a number of people on social media (including MN) saying that they voted No in 2014 but would say Yes, or are starting to come round to the idea, in a second indyref because of Brexit. Sometimes it's because of the loss of freedom of movement, sometimes it's because Scotland's Remain vote has been completely ignored (see also Irish border issue), sometimes just the way our MPs are treated in Westminster.

Often it's reluctant, which I can fully understand. Have you changed your mind, are you swithering? Might you be persuaded?

For probably unnecessary disclosure, I voted Yes, and will do again. I am not a member of any political party/group. I'm just curious.

The problem here is that each side thinks the other is lying. And they are, it just depends on what lies you want to believe or what nuggets of truth you think you've unearthed. Flag waving nationalism is abhorrent in all its forms and I can't believe that people get sucked into it by believing it is something different. But here we are and there will never be a solution that makes everyone happy.

England isn’t one homogenous lump any more than the U.K. is. For example, the needs and political beliefs of people in North East England are much more similar to Scotland than to London or the South East. This argument that the English always override Scotland due to numbers is built on a completely false premise because it fails to recognise the very large differences between the regions of England, some of whom align naturally with Scotland.

What is the false premise?

The false premise is that ‘England’ has the same interests across all regions and that these are different to ‘Scotland’, who has a different set of needs. The argument then goes that because ‘England’ is much bigger, it’s needs will always override those of ‘Scotland’.

In reality this is not what happens at Westminster because regions of England have different sets of needs, and quite often these align with those of Scottish regions. If you were to look at voting patterns and parties in power across the U.K. historically (before the SNP who only stand in Scotland took hold), you couldn’t draw a line along the Scottish border as Scotland and large parts of England were essentially the same. Indeed it was only 10 years ago that the majority of Scotland was represented by the party of government, with a Scottish prime minister no less, which kind of makes a nonsense of the argument that Scotland is never represented.

The SNP are often not taken seriously, but as mentioned above this is more because of their personal qualities and ridiculous stunts than a systemic bias against Scotland.

I agree. It is absolutely fallacy that a) Scotland has unique needs and that b) we're under represented. Gordon Brown comes from Fife, Tony Blair was educated in Edinburgh and many Labour voters believe that had he lived, John Smith would have been PM too.

Scotland isn't one set of needs either. The rural South has very different needs from Central as does Aberdeen, Highlands and Islands and the coastal areas.

The false premise is that ‘Scotland’ has the same interests across all its regions’. Rural Scotland, Highlands and the islands all have very different needs from the Central belt.

The SNP needs reminding that in 2014 all of the constituencies voting YES were in the West Central Belt. Except Dundee - Scotland's Norfolk.

@cdtaylornats I totally agree. Scotland isn’t one homogenous lump either, which makes this false division between English and Scottish needs even more absurd.

Voted (and campaigned for) No in 2014 but pretty sure I would vote Yes if asked again (not saying definitely as the last few years have taught me how much my opinions can change).

It's not entirely due to Brexit, but over a period of time I found my views shifted, it was almost like a set of scales and I just found myself moving from No to Yes.

The Queensferry Crossing was paid wholly by Scottish Govt.

Wholly paid for by the highest taxed people in the UK.

OOAOML - so you have changed your mind from factual and economic based arguments to FREEDUMB!

Why do you hate your descendants?

I don't mind paying for the Queensferry crossing!! It's essential infrastructure.
I'll happily pay more taxes for schools, the NHS etc.

Way to influence people cdtaylor!

Mainly because of the democratic deficit, and an increasing sense that Scotland should take her own path.

As for my descendants, do you want to ask my racist Brexit voting dad why he hates them? Even I haven't gone that far in political debate with him, but you're clearly one for cutting straight to the insults.

Oh come on ffs. Surely on here we can escape from waste monster /yoon/freedumb insults?

That's what polarised the whole shit show the last time, with each side swearing blind that they'd 'never seen' any abuse by their own lot, but been subjected to vile insults by the baddies.

Embarrassing all round really. We can do better.

Embarrassing all round really. We can do better.

One would hope so, but sadly it would appear not. I have a friend that posts pro SNP/independence stuff all the time. You rarely see the opposite, thankfully (for me) it gets very few likes of comments so I have hope that the silent majority are still there.

I voted No last time and Brexit has only cemented that (I voted Remain too). Breaking into smaller bits helps no one.

Things inevitably turn heated and nasty when independence is discussed, which is one of the main reasons I have no desire whatsoever to go there again. I think a lot of my 'Yes' leaning friends are equally reluctant as I don't really hear much about it at all these days (reluctant to discuss it that is - I have no idea if they would still lean towards Yes as literally no-one wants to talk about that in my real life circles).

The democratic deficit argument is a joke. The plan is to go into the EU and reduce or influence to nothing.

If independence ever happened how would you solve the democratic deficit produced by the number of MSPs from the central belt rather than rural Scotland.

I voted No (and also Remain). I'm not sure what I would vote if there was another independence referendum. However I feel quite strongly that we shouldn't have another referendum for another 10-20 years at least. It's too soon. Brexit is a complete shitstorm, and it will take years for the effects of that to be understood. We can't realistically have another Scottish Independence vote until we know what the situations are for both staying or going.

I also agree that the divisivness of Brexit and Scexit are huge and will reverberate for year.

Regarding Education and the NHS, I think the SNP have let us down. Initially I was quite pleased with how the SNP were running the country - depsite not having voted for them - however in the last decade all their energy and attention has been on independence to the detriment of all other services.

I voted no, and remain.

Brexit hasn't changed anything. Most of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK. Leaving the UK to remain in the EU (if it were that simple) just doesn't make sense.

And that's before getting into the whole currency or Cataluna thing.

Wish the SNP would get on with the day job. Referendums just create division.

I voted no and remain.

Its not changed my mind but I can see why it would change others. It made me quite angry at the time and I remarked to my DH that if there was another Scottish Indy ref then it would go the other way.

For me they are both separate. I voted no to independence and I voted no to leave the Euro would absolutely not make me change my mind about Scotland being an independent country. It annoys me when the likes of Nicola Sturgeon assumes I would say yes to independence now purely based on brexit 🤷🏻‍♀️

Leaving the UK and join the EU is independent how ?

What if the EU turns out to be the real shitstorm ?

Yes that’s exactly my worry, both that we’d never qualify for EU entry as an independent country and also that the EU is going to undergo a huge change if Brexit happens so may not be in Scotland’s interest to join at that point.

Simple... yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!

.....YES!