If you voted no in the independence referendum...

[HirplesWithHaggis]

...is Brexit changing your mind?

I've seen a number of people on social media (including MN) saying that they voted No in 2014 but would say Yes, or are starting to come round to the idea, in a second indyref because of Brexit. Sometimes it's because of the loss of freedom of movement, sometimes it's because Scotland's Remain vote has been completely ignored (see also Irish border issue), sometimes just the way our MPs are treated in Westminster.

Often it's reluctant, which I can fully understand. Have you changed your mind, are you swithering? Might you be persuaded?

For probably unnecessary disclosure, I voted Yes, and will do again. I am not a member of any political party/group. I'm just curious.

As per my previous post, I've seen nothing from anyone to say why Scotland should remain in the UK or what the benefits are. Nothing positive whatsoever.

Anyone got anything (and if you're thinking of resurrecting the 8% deficit guff, please have a read of this first)?

Anything at all?

@Jodri ...as a result Scotland is in limbo, stagnating

If that is the case, then the answer would be to elect a different party or force the governing party to act differently. What would that look like...

Scenario (1) Elect Labour. = hard left policies driven by an ideological UK Unionist party, probably pro-Brexit (but who really knows...).

Scenario (2) Elect Conservatives = right wing policies driven by Unionist capitalist ideology and exit EU.

Scenario (3) Elect SNP = the status quo within the constraints of the UK with no serious challengers

Scenario (4) Restore independence and then elect a Scotland-based party of whatever persuasion based on their manifesto. They would then be directly accountable to the Scottish electorate and can be voted in/out on the basis of their manifesto and performance. Scotland's choice would not then be overridden by the greater numbers of seats in the rest of the UK

If we want to change/add to the options available, we need to remove what is constraining us...

What @Sortofbutnotreally said. The SNP in my opinion as an independence supporter is the best and only choice that we have just now. After indy we can vote in any party on their policies- difference being the policies of each Scottish post indy party will be designed to benefit Scotland not the whole UK population.

God my head is nipping with all this and I can’t be the only one!😂 I’m really so sick of elections and referendums.
so yes let’s move forward and as a country and be better. come on and lets show the rest of the UK and the world Scotland is the best then. As the words in a rick and morty episode goes; ‘ show me what you got!’ Stop whingeing about not having enough power and money. The SNP government’s priorities are all wrong in my opinion; I read last week that there are 5 centres of Bòrd na Gàildhlig in Scotland receiving £5 million in state funds promoting Gaelic language yet they are closing down veterinary surveillance units throughout Scotland which monitor disease and collect valuable data.
I do not think we achieve this with another independence referendum nor being superior to those who vote differently than us; I continue to hide all nasty political posts on Facebook, I have unfriended some of my good friends who are ardent SNP supporters on Facebook because they put up really vile posts about those that vote differently (still friends in real life though), was shocked when the SNP were the only political party demonstrating against and being quite the agent provocateurs at a uni Labour Party meeting where Jeremy Corbyn was speaking. Look at the outrage when Neil Oliver was made head of the national trust for Scotland just because he was pro union.

God my head is nipping with all this and I can’t be the only one!😂 I’m really so sick of elections and referendums

Completely agree. But it's that or at least 5 years if not more of Boris Johnson and emboldened right wing rule

lets show the rest of the UK and the world Scotland is the best then...

It's not about that and nor is about some perceived idea of Scotland being superior. It's quite the opposite - Scotland is in an inferior position through dint of having no voice in an unequal union. Independence simply restores us to the same position as any other democratic country in the rest of the world

...ardent SNP supporters on Facebook because they put up really vile posts about those that vote differently

That's very short-sighted of them. You don't win people over to your side of the debate by insulting them

Look at the outrage when Neil Oliver was made head of the national trust for Scotland just because he was pro union.

It wasn't because he was a Unionist, it was because he was an arsehole and behaved the same way your aforementioned friends did, e.g. referring to the possibility of IndyRef2 as a 'cancerous presence' and numerous other vitriolic and sometimes personal attacks.

Bottom line is that regaining independence will not be easy and I expect heid nipping to be accompanied by head-wall-banging fairly regularly

I’ve only really watched Neil Oliver on tv and I often read his column in the times which I’ve found measured and quite sensible (not judging everyone solely on who they vote for: it is a secret ballot after all). I’ll have a search for his misdemeanours, Im open to change my view.
However, I don’t see labelling indyref2
a ‘cancerous presence’ that abhorrent.
Thank you Sortofbutnotreallyits good to have a sensible and respectful discussion. The people of Scotland can have a prudent debate even though the leaders, MSPs and MPs (I’m looking at you Mhari Black; highlighting offensive language in Westminster then using it back at folk who don’t agree with her) on all sides (With the exception of Jeremy Corbyn who I always found was respectful in interviews and debates).
They should all know better; they’d be chucked out of the debating club at my old comprehensive for their behaviour.

I’ve just read a piece by Jim Sillars about federalism and think that might be a good option for us all.
Illuminating posts in the AIBU thread about SNP and independence. Church of Scotland had so much power and influence (and still have too much for my liking). Economics of oil and the landowning classes have a lot to answer for. Looking on the flip side, maybe it’s good that Scotland didn’t reap all the earth’s blood money from how the UK whored itself out to the oil industry. How the likes of USA, Russia, Norway must be so proud to have built economies on industry that has been instrumental in killing our planet.
Independence I think is a step too far for me now and I don’t want to sever and lose all the relationships, ideas, culture, history, science and technology that has intertwined the UK over the last centuries.

My grandmother is from an European country and settled here with my Glaswegian grandfather after his military service. I used to be so pro European; I think I was one of a handful of folk who regularly tuned into the Gaelic Èuorpa on bbc Scotland (thank goodness for subtitles!) but the ties that bind me to UK are stronger and more relevant than the ones in Europe.
(Couldn’t find any vitriolic personal attacks that Neil Oliver made; yesterday’s news so no longer important?)

"I don’t want to sever and lose all the relationships, ideas, culture, history, science and technology that has intertwined the UK over the last centuries."

Why would becoming self governing now 'sever and lose' any of these things? It just wouldn't. All these things will still be there, still be valid, still be able to happen but as allies rather than in an unequal relationship

“I have two issues with [Salmond’s] more recent pronouncement – and with Nicola Sturgeon’s promise that she herself will choose the date for a second hate-fest”.
Oliver then returned to his attack on Salmond.
“Salmond is a big, round wrecking ball of a man, shaped only to do damage," he wrote...The presenter of BBC Two’s Coast then went on to mock the independence movement, before concluding: “Vote SNP – they want to shoot the dog but it’s OK: after it’s dead you can still keep it in your bedroom and stroke it just like always. Maybe give it a new name. Call it Independence.”

Vitriolic and personal attacks from Neil Oliver

I really do not feel that what you’ve quoted as Neil Oliver writing (could I please have source to verify? Was it his Sunday times column?) is really a good example of vitriolic and personal attacks. Was he acting in his capacity as a journalist when he wrote this?
If he was, then I think he is doing his job correctly. I’ve been insulted worse down the high street on a Saturday night in the queue for chips!
Goodness knows how they would have fared in the Agora or the Roman forum; Cicero and even the writer Jonathon swift would have had a field day. How do they cope with the publication private eye or the comedian Frankie Boyle (he has distanced himself from his early stuff though hasn’t he)
I can be Scottish and British and I don’t want to lose that. I’ll try and explain what I’m mean; I like being both and it will be lost if we go down the route the SNP has us on. My society will be poorer for it. I feel like I’m in the same tribe as the British scientists who discovered the structure of DNA or the groundbreaking DNA profiling; I like that the British and singer Billy Bragg highlights political injustices for all peoples; I like Kate Bush’s and dizze rascal’s music; Phillip Pullman is a brilliant illuminating British writer; welsh and British politician Nye Bevan established the NHS; I love it that Games of thrones and had loads of amazing NI actors (ahem we don’t talk about the last two seasons) and the astute and hilarious Derry Girls was filmed in NI. Yeah we are all different but being British connects us.

If we became an independent country then yes I can still appreciate their brilliance but from a distance, I’ll no longer be in their team.

Like enjoying Dwayne the rock Johnson’s films, but he’s a Hollywood movie star, and no he’s never going to do a Q&A session at the Dundee Rep.

Independence I think is a step too far for me now and I don’t want to sever and lose all the relationships, ideas, culture, history, science and technology that has intertwined the UK over the last centuries

I think that's an interesting point, but for a different reason. I think there is an implicit assumption in your comment that all the relationships, culture etc that have been intertwined with the 'UK' as an entity because of the UK. I would dispute that - Scotland has very strong international identity and ties with many institutions and countries in its own right across all areas. There are hundreds of major international alliances and relationships across the World, e.g. in the Arts: Celtic Connections Festival, World Piping Championships, Edinburgh Festival (largest Arts festival in the world) to name just a few off the top of my head. These are all world famous and attract global participation and audiences. Add in the established international reputation and global co-operative programmes of our universities in many fields ranging from Space Aviation (largest satellite producer in Europe for various Space Programmes) to Physics (2 Scots won the 2016 Nobel Prize for Physics - both educated here and now based in US universities) and the many twinning arrangements and educational transfers (Erasmus) that have developed and thrived over the years.

The one thing that all of these have in common is that they will be harmed by an action being forced upon us and which we do not have the democratic tools to fight back against. It is being in the UK that is actually harming them (not threatening, harming).

A very important benefit to Independence is that we will have the power to protect and enhance these relationships, including everything that has been hard-won and built to date. And most significantly, that includes the positives of having a relationship on an equal footing with a neighbour as opposed to a master

@jodri - I can be Scottish and British and I don’t want to lose that. I’ll try and explain what I’m mean; I like being both and it will be lost if we go down the route the SNP has us on

This is true. All down to a personal sense of identity, I guess. I understand where you are coming from but to me the feeling of "Britishness" carries a hint of nostalgia. I've never identified as British and am completely indifferent to it

go down the route the SNP has us on

Important point - the Independence movement is not the SNP. They are perceived as the best political vehicle for independence but it is much wider than that

My society will be poorer for it.

Nope, strongly disagree with this (see earlier post). I think Scotland will build on its already established profile and add to its citizen's unique identity. But these are just views - for this to happen (or increase), we need to nurture and encourage what we have. And we are doing the exact opposite. The fact is our options are severely limited by a one-sided relationship with a much larger, louder partner and Westminster's lack of accountability to Scotland

P.S. I have a sneaking suspicion that Nye Bevan might not be too impressed with the direction the UK is taking.

Ok, yes I think I see your point. Bagpipes and the twee vision of Scotland peddled out by Walter Scott are not my thing, but understand other people enjoy them. I do love ceilidh dancing but was too young for my rural society.
I didn’t mean to exclude any experience unique to Scottish culture as they will continue to be part of the beautiful tapestry of Scotland whatever. I meant to highlight that we are richer for being part of uk. I do love the acts they often have at Celtic connections, Seth lakeman, clannad even They might be giants! I thought all Edinburgh residents decanted out of the capital during the month of August for the Edinburgh festival though; it would be great if they could have timetabled the most famous festival in Scotland during the school summer holidays so that we could all visit and not just play to the international Or rUK crowd.

Do you mean that these things are harmed by leaving the EU? I only reckon Erasmus will be from your list and controversially I’m not bothered; it’s a jolly jaunt for students and not everyone I knew who did a language degree were able to go or benefitted much by going to Europe at all during their degree. Interestingly when my dd went to uni we were advised by a professor, that it was not beneficial and can actually disadvantage an overall degree classification as they are much less regarded than our institutions. North America and Australia exchanges seem to be more popular now. The others on your list will remain but Institutions relying majorly on EU funding, instead of other ways to finance, like international students, will need to rebalance their books somehow. Collaborations will still happen.

I voted to leave EU and so did my staunch SNP voting family but for a different reason; they voted tactically, as it was a whole uk vote they reckoned the more folk who voted to leave, the more reason SNP, who want to stay in the EU, would have ammunition to call for another independence referendum. A gamble and goodness knows what planet they were thinking on but they reckon it’s paid off.
I read that Nicola sturgeon’s govan constituency voted to leave the EU. Is this true? I can only find figures for the whole of Glasgow or combinations of constituencies in Glasgow.

I still think federalism may be they way to compromise. Royal family may have a different opinion

I thought nhs is devolved to scotland?

Do you mean snp contracting out the sorcing of medicines for nhs Scotland to American firms?

I didn’t mean to exclude any experience unique to Scottish culture as they will continue to be part of the beautiful tapestry of Scotland whatever

As will all the other cultural and relationship foundations that modern Scotland has been built on. Independence doesn't threaten them but Brexit and a right wing xenophobic Government for the next 5 (realistically 10) years certainly does

Do you mean that these things are harmed by leaving the EU? I only reckon Erasmus will be from your list

Far from it...as another example from many; University research partnerships and European funding are under threat, in particular exclusion from major programmes such as Horizon 2020 (ec.europa.eu/programmes/horizon2020/en Horizon 2020), Hadron Collider etc.

Another obvious one to add to the list of negative impact to our cultural richness is the removal of the right to work in the EU and vice versa. There is nothing culturally enriching about isolationism.

Collaborations will still happen

Probably, assuming universities can afford them with reduced research grants. But 2 problems at least here: (1) for the UK to participate in Horizon 2020 it would have to pay into a central pot administered by the EU...so that's effed (2) the source of income that is International Students for Scottish institutions is compromised because Westminster will only agree to the standard student visas being valid for 3 years - exactly one year too short for a standard 4 year Honours degree in Scotland (the response from Westminster was 'shorten your degree course'). How attractive is that to foreign students?

I thought nhs is devolved to scotland?

It is, currently. But Westminster has the power to reacquire any devolved powers it sees fit without any parliamentary debate (Westminster specifically legislated for this after the Brexit vote). It's a given that Johnson will not allow separate NHS negotiations by Scotland with the US and that devolved NHS powers will revert to Westminster 'for the meantime' And the electoral impact to Johnson? Nil

But specific examples are not really the point here - what really matters is that this is happening against our will and we are powerless to prevent it. And it will continue happening for as long as the hard right wants it to

Taking that into account and then add in the reality of the UK going through the biggest upheaval since the second World War with Johnson, Rees Mogg, Hancock, Patel, Gove, Francois and the ERG in charge I cannot see any positive case for the Union. None

I think most folk in England voted for the conservatives because they wanted Brexit done and like the rest of us are so fed up but didn’t have an alternative. they’ll be out at the next general election.
how many folk are employed permanently in the likes of horizon 2020? What % of Scottish folk actually go and work in the EU longer than the equivalent to a summer? We hardly speak anything other than English in Scotland so are at a complete disadvantage.
My sister and my brother in law work as doctors one in nhs Scotland and one in nhs England; very different and never the Twain shall meet and are convinced the other is better. I think posturing that Westminster will take back nhs Scotland is scaremongering. So, has Nicola sturgeon contracted out the medicine sourcing arm of the nhs to an American firm?

Federalism would resolve this not independence.

they’ll be out at the next general election

And who's going to replace them? Labour? The front runner to replace Corbyn - Long Bailey - is a Corbynite. Labour isn't learning any lessons and history tells you how that works out.

Lib Dems? - Swinson has killed them for the foreseeable future

And even if the Tories are kicked out, what changes for Scotland? Nothing

I think posturing that Westminster will take back nhs Scotland is scaremongering

Then why specifically legislate for any devolved power (not just the NHS) to be returned to Westminster without debate? It's not scaremongering - it's a logical negotiation strategy that is now supported by statute (Google - The Continuity Bill)

Federalism would resolve this not independence

Which would require the de-centralisation of power from Westminster and the House of Lords to the rest of the UK. Chances of them voting for that?

And how would Federalism change things for Scotland? It wouldn't - the democratic imbalance would be the same through simple weight of numbers

Nope, I can see only one answer that makes any sense if we are to dodge the Johnson/Francois/Rees Mogg-shaped wrecking ball that's headed our way...

Time for methinks

As I’ve said before, when SNP government start taking responsibility for actually running my country, making it better and stop making excuses that it’s all Westminster’s fault for them missing targets and drops in standards in education and women’s rights, then the can have my vote.
Stop whingeing and get on with running my country.

"And who's going to replace them?"

Maybe the party which consistently comes second, with a large share of the votes in Scotland, but which rarely wins seats because of FPTP.

The level of Tory support is usually airbrushed out fairly effectively.

As I’ve said before, when SNP government start taking responsibility for actually running my country,

The old 'Get on with your day job' argument..? You're answering a question that hasn't been asked. The question is not about whether the SNP is/isn't doing a good job. It's about whether Scotland should return to being an independent country. As per my earlier post, the independence movement is not the SNP

If you don't like/rate the SNP's performance, you can vote for the Conservatives/Lib Dems/Labour/Greens/Whoever in the first post-independence election, where your vote will actually have some value

Now, what were the benefits of being in the Union again? (awaits neat sidestep )

@scaffold "And who's going to replace them?"

This refers to the Tories being in power at a UK level and the lack of challengers. Johnson/Mogg/Patel et al are there for the next 5 years, probably 10 if Labour doesn't get its act together.

Regardless, both parties are pro-UK and are adamant that Scotland should stay in the Union which, when you think about it, is a little odd given that Scotland is such a financial basket case...

'What % of Scottish folk actually go and work in the EU longer than the equivalent to a summer?'

I have. I've lived in EU countries outside Scotland and rUK for 3 years altogether. I studied. I worked on a market stall. I taught English.
I speak several languages, about half of which are EU ones.

I think I get more out of the EU now though, living in Scotland and sharing good practice with people working in my industry in other EU countries thanks to Erasmus grants etc.

I can't imagine my life without the EU because I've grown up with it and it has informed how I've structured my studies and my career.

But I don't think EU membership can be seen as inextricably linked to an independent Scotland. Many people who voted yes in 2014 had a different idea of Scotland's future relationship with the EU.

I’m pleased that you’ve managed to have these amazing experiences and a good career.
However, I think they are very much the exception in Scotland and, for many parts of Europe the reverse is true.
Yes I voted for independence for Scotland in 2014 and to leave EU and I’m undecided now about another indeyref2 (swaying towards remain with UK the more I read at the moment).
Perhaps waiting to see how the future pans out, how the dust settles, after leaving EU, would be beneficial. If it’s a shit storm then surely independence for Scotland will be easier to achieve. A period of not rushing into a decision I think would be better.

Surely common sense says wait for the dust to settle, wait for an eu trade deal, and other trade deals to emerge. Then evaluate whether the U.K. as a whole and Scotland in particular needs a new referendum on independence, and possible reentry into the EU.

This mad scramble for independence is simply a ploy for Scotland to remain in the EU after Brexit but the time table is unreachable and just isn't going to happen as it would massively complicate things with a border across Scotland being inevitable. The U.K. is going to leave that to Scotland for the coming years if and when independence arrives.

Surely in the interim the Scottish Parliament should be making steps to truly rule Scotland with sensible taxation and a slow shift of full power and independent rule to the Scottish Parliament?