If you voted no in the independence referendum...

[HirplesWithHaggis]

...is Brexit changing your mind?

I've seen a number of people on social media (including MN) saying that they voted No in 2014 but would say Yes, or are starting to come round to the idea, in a second indyref because of Brexit. Sometimes it's because of the loss of freedom of movement, sometimes it's because Scotland's Remain vote has been completely ignored (see also Irish border issue), sometimes just the way our MPs are treated in Westminster.

Often it's reluctant, which I can fully understand. Have you changed your mind, are you swithering? Might you be persuaded?

For probably unnecessary disclosure, I voted Yes, and will do again. I am not a member of any political party/group. I'm just curious.

Ginger I’ve no idea what that means I teach here and hear so much worse issues coming from colleagues in England, I think that’s a fair assessment. SATs, academies - not an issue here.

Curriculum for excellence - not an issue in England

DH voted no in the first referendum but would vote yes if there was another one. Purely because of the complete mishandling of Brexit by WM.
I voted yes last time and would do so again.

Yeah, that’s why I said it wasn’t going well in Scotland. We also have a recruitment and retention crisis. But still, not as bad as England.

DH voted no in the first referendum but would vote yes if there was another one. Purely because of the complete mishandling of Brexit by WM

Yip, cos making a decision that will affect future generations of people based on one event or person makes total sense. Though to be fair, there are loads of people who voted yes based on the result of a battle hundreds of years ago with Scots on either side whilst totally forgiving nations that wiped out millions only decades ago and wanting to be controlled by one of them.

I voted No in 2014 and would vote hell no this time.

If Yes won and it was only the West Central belt that voted that way like last time I could see some distinct unrest in the North and Ayrshire and Borders. Holyrood does nothing for rural Scotland.

I don’t think education is going well in Scotland but it’s about 20 times better than it is in England.

So this is what we judge ourselves against now? Let's not try to have a world class education, as long as we are better than England (which i'm not convinced about) then that's okay?

I used to be proud to celebrate the accident of birth that made me Scottish. Now I'm just ashamed. Nationalism is just horrible wherever it comes from.

Lilith.thanks for sharing your Dh's view. I'm sure we'll all take a minute to consider his words of wisdom

Did I say that? But when we are discussing how Scotland performs in Education as compared with how the Westminster government runs education I think it is relevant.
This thread is on the aggressive side isn’t it?
I still remember being told that voting against independence meant getting to stay in Europe..

Can’t we just vote to leave Scotland and the uk and stay in Europe?

It’s a complete shitshow and I don’t see how any of this ends well. I voted no and I maintain staying together is the best thing. On all levels. I genuinely don’t know where the hell thst leaves me now

hosbono because comparing it to England has no relevance to what we are talking about, Westminster isn't trying to impose their system into Scotland, Holyrood fucked that up all by themselves. It's this constant stream of one up manship or bile directed to everything South of the border that is so fucking horrible.

I would vote no again, at Westminster we have 56 MP roughly 1 in 11 as reflects population, in Europe we have 6 in 725 less than 1 in a 100. In fact virtually invisible. Much less than Portugal who already has no impact at all on decisions. I could possibly be persuaded to vote for genuine independence but not for switching from Westminster to Brussels.

Approximately a third of SNP supporters also support Brexit, they want real independence, there is a very strong correlation between arguments for Brexit and arguements for Scottish independence, there is no correlation between why staying within EU is a good thing but staying in UK is a bad thing

At present Scotland's economic state doesn't meet EU criteria so there would be more austerity to achieve this

Actually when I moved to Scotland 25 years ago Scotland was ahead of England in reading and maths however, it is now the other way round since SNP started messing with education and curriculum for excellence Scotland have fallen down in both literacy and numeracy this is nothing to be proud of especially as spending per pupil is higher in Scotland

No. I voted no in 2014 and will vote no again if there is another one.

LilithsFamiliar same story - my husband now would change his vote to Yes. I reluctantly voted Yes last time because of Westminster politics, and also three quiet concerns that I had in 2014: fear that Scotland was going to be dragged out of the EU, the horror I feel about Trident - and my view that the programme would be renewed, and my worry that Boris Johnson could become PM ..... sadly those concerns aren't silent anymore.

I voted no last time but I think now I would vote yes. The ineptitude of the Labour Party at taking on the Conservatives who have been nothing short of disastrous for this country and the very strong possibility of Nigel Farage and UKIP having a strong election next time means that although I'm no big fan of the SNP I will consider voting yes if there's an indyref soon.

I see two issues have cropped up in this thread that are frequently brought up when independence is mentioned, the education system and the problems with the SNP.

Education is Scotland has always been a completely separate institution from England. In fact, prior to 1707 Scotland had a more comprehensive, widespread education system than England. I don’t understand why so much emphasis is based on how well the system is working when discussing independence, it is irrelevant.

The SNP might be the main party who are pushing for independence but you can’t seriously decide if the country you live in should elect its own government, policy and future plans based on whether or not you like one political party, that’s ridiculous.

TBH, I’m not keen on many aspects of the SNP but those complaining about them can’t seriously believe that the Tories or Labour would be doing a better job. And I’d challenge you all to take a look at how NI and Wales are doing and find a policy area that is working better there than in Scotland.

If you really want to understand how scotland would manage as an independent country I would say you should look at comparable sized countries across the EU. Spending on Scottish infrastructure as been massively restricted (as have many parts of the U.K), for a very long time and the repercussions are that we are not doing as well as we should be with the natural resources we have. Do you think this will improve within the UK?

Where do you think additional money for infrastructure spending comes from in an independent Scotland?

I see the mistaken idea that we can vote to remain in the EU and be saved from economic consequences of Brexit by voting for independence being repeated again. Surely we’ve learned from Brexit that you need to understand something about how leaving a union works before you make a vote.

Yes op absolutely then and now.

Yes then and definitely yes again. I work in local Government and see that the Tories up here are every bit as incompetent and divisive as those in Westminster. They are toxic. I cannot see how anyone can compare the Civic Nationalism of SNP with the Right Wing Ethnic Nationalism exhibited by Farage and the like. Independence may feel risky to some, but I can't believe we could make the mess the UK Govt are making of Brexit. As for the EU, each of the 27 countries has an equal veto. We are not equal within the UK. Our vote counts for nothing. Voting for Independence is not voting for an SNP or Green Govt ad infinitum. It means that any Labour, Tory or Lib Dem Govt, if elected, would act in Scotland's interests, not the UK's. I cannot see any benefit to Scotland remaining as part of a UK and I have never been show any, apart from keeping the status quo. If its because of the supposed broad shoulders of the UK, then look at what happened in Aberdeen when the price crashed. The overwhelming support was from Scottish Govt, not the UK.

How much money would the Scottish govt have had to bail out Aberdeen with a gdp deficit the size of Greece? The SNP had money to bail out precisely because they lost the independence vote and as they are in charge in Scotland it was their place
To do so.

Independence rests on the principle that RUK are other to Scotland as Brexit rests on the idea that REU are different to the UK. The founding idea is exactly a rejection of other people in a union and the pro EU stance is just saying we prefer those other people to these RUK other people.

The SNP have presided over such a dreadful drop in Scottish educational standards that they have withdrawn us from the international comparison tables to hide their embarrassment. So no, we are NOT “doing better than England” as a PP claimed.
I voted No and Satan would be sledging to work before I ever considered voting yes.
Just listen to the total shit the SNP talk about floating a Scottish currency. We have no central bank, cash reserves or credit status. We have a percentage deficit that is the worst in the whole EU - worse even than Greece - and would need savage austerity measures to reduce it to a level where we could even be eligible for EU membership as an independent country.
The drastic benefit and pension cuts, and tax rises, needed to achieve it would hit the most vulnerable Scots hardest.
Only the financially illiterate could support the SNP and independence.
Or an emotional, racist, anti English, saltire waver, who thinks the poison of nationalism is something to be proud of.

I think there's such a danger in these ideology-driven concepts - look at Brexit. I don't think you can blame what it's turned into solely on the Westminster govt - simple fact is it's a shitstorm because the ideology does not match up with reality. It's like an expensive, bitter divorce, where both parties become entrenched in their ideology & is impossible to negotiate or find compromise. No thank you.

Our "deficit" includes a proportion towards paying for HS2, Heathrow runway, London sewerage upgrade and other English infrastructure projects, most of which we derive no benefit. The Queensferry Crossing was paid wholly by Scottish Govt.
Ian Lang, Tory, admitted the Gers stats he initiated were designed to undermine Scotland.
The Scottish Education system may not be perfect and needs revision but, as pp noted, English education has its own problems. We withdrew from Pirls as the Education system was in the midst of change due to CfE. It has its issues, but it's principles have been praised by the OECD.
I am not anti English and have never been abusive to others, but have been on the receiving end of smears, abuse and lies by Unionists. I want England, and my relatives who live there, to be my neighbours and not my masters.