If you voted no in the independence referendum...

[HirplesWithHaggis]

...is Brexit changing your mind?

I've seen a number of people on social media (including MN) saying that they voted No in 2014 but would say Yes, or are starting to come round to the idea, in a second indyref because of Brexit. Sometimes it's because of the loss of freedom of movement, sometimes it's because Scotland's Remain vote has been completely ignored (see also Irish border issue), sometimes just the way our MPs are treated in Westminster.

Often it's reluctant, which I can fully understand. Have you changed your mind, are you swithering? Might you be persuaded?

For probably unnecessary disclosure, I voted Yes, and will do again. I am not a member of any political party/group. I'm just curious.

@WaxOnFeckOff - why on earth do you think an enormously successful organisation such as the EU won’t continue in its current form?

Scotland is part of the UK, it's the UK government. You could just as easily say that Liverpool votes Labour and it's unfair they have a Tory government. It;s how democracy works. It's not a case that Scotland couldn't run it's own affairs, I'm sure it could but we'd certainly be more poorly off which may or may not be worth it depending on your outlook. I'm not averse to paying more, but, just like the argument many have for being in the EU, i believe that we are better off in the UK. To leave with no guarantees that you will have any trade deals with UK or EU and to chuck money down a black hole trying to detangle everything, i just don't think it's worth it and certainly not twice in a decade.

Zsazsajuju - if I could actually work out what you were trying to say, I could attempt to answer. You sound like a bot to me...

If we had PR then the SNP would be 20 seats down on what they are sitting with. So if we are talking about fairness of representation then maybe campaigning for that would be the first step. Can't see them stepping up to do that though do you?

As a non SNP voter, I have more representation in the UK parliament than I have looking at the results in Scotland, maybe that's not fair either but I have to suck it up because you know, democracy...

If we had PR then the SNP would be 20 seats down on what they are sitting with. So if we are talking about fairness of representation then maybe campaigning for that would be the first step. Can't see them stepping up to do that though do you?

"We will continue to call for the first past the post voting system to be replaced at Westminster with proportional representation, so that every vote and every part of the country counts. We have already extended the franchise in Scottish and local elections to 16 and 17 year olds and will use new powers to protect the voting rights of EU citizens too."

www.snp.org/our-vision/constitution/

Okay, I take that bit back then. Are they also intending to put proper checks and balances into the Holyrood constitution?

@WaxOnFeckOff - First of all, you can't compare Scotland leaving the UK with any of these other countries (i think including some from the 1700s is really clutching at straws)

Eh?? Go back and read the graphics and pay attention to the dates - the majority severed British ties since the Second World War. And let's not forget the ones that managed to break away in the 1700s had integrated tax/govt/legal structures with Britain (the Boston Tea Party was a reaction to British taxes). And if they could manage it 250 years ago, why should we find it difficult now?

It is much closer to compare the exit from GB to the GB one from the EU

Brexit was decided on without anybody knowing what it was - and that was just within the Conservative party. It took them 3 years, 2 leaders, 2 general elections, multiple bribes and many political careers and the election of an incompetent to hammer it out. And they still don;t know what they're getting. All Scotland wants is one thing - the right to make our own decision for the benefit of Scotland. Independence. That's it.

if any future independent Scotland (or indeed the UK) met the criteria and reached the top of the queue

There is no queue. Never has been

You could just as easily say that Liverpool votes Labour and it's unfair they have a Tory government
Liverpool is a city. Scotland is a country

If we had PR then the SNP would be 20 seats down on what they are sitting with

You might at least have checked that one first...

SNP Constitution - We will continue to call for the first past the post voting system to be replaced at Westminster with proportional representation But Westminster wants First Past the Post. So what system are we stuck with?

None of the countries in recent times had the same level of integrated infrastructure.

All Scotland wants is one thing - the right to make our own decision for the benefit of Scotland. Independence. That's it. Yep, that's it, so how is that any different from GB leaving EU? So that one thing then fixes all the other things? It means we just wave bye bye and carry on as usual?

My point is that Scotland doesn't vote as Scotland, we are voting in a UK election, you can cut it any way you like, but we are voting for representation in Westminster, we get exactly the amount of representation as any other area does. there is no intrinsic difference to a person in Newcastle or Liverpool to one in Glasgow etc. People have been told that we are special and different etc. No we are not, I potentially have more in common to a person in Hull as I do to someone in Dundee.

Some people just have big chip on their shoulder for events that happened way back in history (remembered inaccurately as well) yet seem to be able to forgive other countries for much more recent events. It's just childish playground behaviour.

Neither of us is likely to change the others beliefs .

I know you won't change your mind Wax. (But I can't ignore the absolute cack you sometimes write and) there are a lot of good rebuttals to your (grasping at straws) points against Scottish self governance which others, some who may not actually have researched, can then read. So thanks

Calyx - you just sum up the general attitude of the SNP faithful for me. It's always a bit of a disappointment when you find out that someone supports the SNP. A bit like when someone you respected tells you they believe in god.

Glad you are enjoying the absolute tripe that the brainwashed like to trot out. All the drivel from the SNP think tank can't be wrong...except it is and yet it still gets trotted out by the party faithful from the SNP bible of Xenaphopia whilst not tackling the sectarian issues in your own country - but how can that be because are the most welcoming people in the world (except of course if you don't agree with Nicola or happen to be english or be from the "wrong" branch of religion)?

What gets my goat is that they like to think that they occupy the moral high ground and that you can't possibly be a caring person interested in a fairer society if you vote anything else other than SNP. A bit like not being a good person unless you go to church and believe in Jesus.

@Sortofbutnotreally: All Scotland wants is one thing - the right to make our own decision for the benefit of Scotland. Independence. That's it

WaxOnFeckOff: Yep, that's it, so how is that any different from GB leaving EU? So that one thing then fixes all the other things? It means we just wave bye bye and carry on as usual?

Simple. The act of independence doesn't fix all the other things, it gives Scotland the power to (try to) fix all the other things

@WaxOnFeckOff - My point is that Scotland doesn't vote as Scotland, we are voting in a UK election,...

Bingo - you've hit the nail on the head. Our voice counts for nothing in the United Kingdom. The "stay with us and be an equal partner" (Tories ad nauseum pre Independence Referendum) is now shown to be the complete bollocks it always was. That. along with all the other falsehoods from the "Stay. We'll do better, promise" shower...

As Brexit has starkly illustrated, there is no future for Scotland in a one-sided right-wing 'partnership'

But you are seeing Scotland as if it isn't part of Britain which is obviously both our points. You don't want it to be and therefore see it as if we aren't being fairly represented. Whereas I see that we are being fairly represented as we are voting in a UK election and so have exactly the representation that the system affords every individual in the UK. We aren't treated as lesser than the rest of the country, it's just that we have a party that only stands in Scottish seats. If we had PR or the same parties as the rest of the UK then the situation would be different.

I've been voting in elections of all sorts since I was 18, about 35 years, it doesn't always result in the person or party i've voted for representing me. It's the nature of democracy, that will be the same for most people. My natural position would be left of centre. I'm a floating voter now. I love the country i was born in, but the way the SNP go on makes me ashamed. Much as I was perfectly happy to see Jo Swinson go, the reaction of Sturgeon just summed her up for me. It was a disgrace really, the reaction of a child in the playground not really befitting someone who sees themselves as the leader of a country. shameful really.

WaxOnFeckOff: Glad you are enjoying the absolute tripe that the brainwashed like to trot out. All the drivel from the SNP think tank can't be wrong...except it is

None of my points/responses are from the SNP 'think tank' (whatever that might be). They are from the think tank of rational assessment and Google. No membership fee required

On the other hand, I've seen nothing from anyone to say why Scotland should remain in the UK or what the benefits are. Nothing positive whatsoever.

Have you got anything (and if you're thinking of resurrecting the 8% deficit guff, please have a read of this first)?

Anything at all?

WaxOnFeckOff - Much as I was perfectly happy to see Jo Swinson go, the reaction of Sturgeon just summed her up for me

The successful candidate is a protege and personal friend of Sturgeon's. A 27 year old young woman who had skin cancer and had to have surgery and cancer treatment when she was 19. including the removal of part of her cheekbone and facial nerves. In Sturgeon's own words;

“If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.

You seem to be automatically assigning a motive based on a personal opinion...?

@Sortofbutnotreally that's what Wax does. Assign motive based on opinion. Says a lot of bitter, twisted lies such as in their last message to me.

@WaxOnFeckOff yes is not just SNP as you have been told before. Xenophobic and anti-English is lies again as you have been told before. And your believe in God stuff and wrong religion stuff is you're losing the argument and looking more and more desperate and dangerous imo

Sortof, a hastily contrived and very convenient excuse made up to explain a disgusting display celebrating someone losing their job which clearly other people noticed when sturgeon knew she was on camera.

Calyx, one again your true colours coming out in personal attacks which most people manage to avoid. I'll not dignify your rant with a response. I'm away to work now so you carry on...

I’m not really bothered about how other countries separated from Britain. What I’m interested in is how scotland is being run at the moment. Trains and public transport are awful, the way curriculum of excellence has been implemented has really affected a generation, figures for higher education almost impossible to find, nhs and school new builds a disaster (were they financed by a private public fund just presented in a really complicated way? That’s what senior civil servants have been trying to highlight)
What would be a positive for me is if the SNP stopped blaming Westminster for all the things that are wrong and fall short in scotland; I feel they need to remain part of EU so that they can blame EU when things go wrong (as at some point something will, nothing is perfect). Yes I do think SNP supporters are blinkered and don’t hold their party to account or criticise, as all they want is independence.
I don’t think that they are a left wing party; look at the windfall Ian blackford is going to get, please don’t try and call him a simple crofter.

What about independence supporters who aren't keen on SNP policies either?

I do think the Scottish govt is doing the best they can while tied to and financially controlled by the WM govt.

@WaxOnFeckOff my question was why do you think the EU won’t continue in its current form? I thought that was fairly clear from my post but perhaps not to everyone.

As for the silly bot insults, lol. You could be Daily mail pensioner bot with the above. But I will trust you are not

@WaxOnFeckOff - re SNP winning Jo Swinsons seat, similar celebrations were filmed for Willie Rennie when their candidate won a seat against the SNP incumbent. It’s not really disgusting to celebrate your candidate winning. It’s entirely normal whether the SNP do it or anyone else.

@WaxOnFeckOff but you are assigning motive to NSs celebration based on your opinion and contrary to her own explanation which is perfectly reasonable and believable- how is that a personal rant?

And me pointing out you have repeatedly assigned SNP support to me when I have repeatedly told you I don't agree with a lot of their policy as well as telli you the yes movement has many parties and those with none - that's not a rant, it's not letting lies (or mistakes ) stand uncorrected.

You brought up Nazi-ism and you repeatedly say SNP supporters and NS are 'anti-English' which I believe is dangerous language.

You don't have to goad and smear and lie if you have a true case for Scotland remaining in the union.

I'm still no. After the shitshow on Thursday, its clear indyref2 is now unavoidable. Bring it on I reckon. Yes will most probably lose again, or win on a fag paper majority that will divide us bitterly forever, as I fully expect brexit to do. Let's just fucking do it.

We'll see how yellow maps in first past the post elections translate into individual votes in a referendum.

I agree that Nicola sturgeon’s winning dance in response to Jo Swindon’s defeat was very immature and not what I would look for in my leader (IMO not too far away from the likes of behaviour shown by Donald trump or Boris Johnson) irrespective of the trials the winning SNP candidate has gone through. We all have shit to deal with in our lives; I know opinions are likely to formed subjectively but come on let’s try and be objective.
It’s not unusual conduct from our first minister though: Alex salmon realised that you have to behave in certain ways in public and with other leaders which I have respect for (privately his behaviour is another story and if true I hope he is held to account like any one else ).

Calyx72 Do you mean that other independence supporters don’t agree with SNP policies but still vote SNP? I can only imagine that they want independence at almost any cost and that they are prepared to take anything as long as Scotland is independent. There are quite a few deal breakers for me that the SNP and the Scottish government are making a shit storm about and no one is tackling them on it! Sort them out and I might think differently.
I don’t think the SNP are doing the best they can within the constraints of Westminster, that’s just an excuse and such a defeatist attitude. I feel they could be making real progress and difference in Scotland but they want to get the most votes and get independence: as a result Scotland is in limbo, stagnating.